<p>I'm pretty surprised by the interest in IR degrees as well. For one, the marginal value of a degree from most of these programs is extremely questionable.</p>
<p>I lucked out with IR/PS, simply because I was in-state. I paid nearly nothing for it, so the return on it is HUGE. That's not true for the Fletcher or SIPA or SAIS grads...</p>
<p>UCLAri: it seems like your tone changed over the last year on the IR degrees. What made the difference?</p>
<p>I don't think I ever believed that the IR degrees were huge moneymakers to begin with. I also probably have a better grasp on money now that I've taken all the finance and accounting classes here.</p>
<p>So I guess the IR program made me jaded. Ironic, in a way.</p>
<p>Haha, you've been converted...</p>
<p>Volscio: I'm still an undergrad. I was supposed to finish this year but Im dividing my final 30 so credits over two years so I can go to study abroad next Fall.</p>
<p>As far as IR degrees go, my feeling has always been that alot of students (not all, but alot) get them for classic 20 seomthing reasons like "I want to get paid to see the world." As misguided and completely ill informed as that line of reasoning is, I truly believe it pushes alot of kids towards IR degrees in the hopes of a career filled jet setting around the third world solving peoples problems. I've always been skeptical, if not critical, of IR degrees just because I feel their return, as UCLAri said, are marginal at best.</p>
<p>jm, </p>
<p>Your line of thinking isn't totally off the mark, but it is, I think, far too simplistic. Yes, you're right that the return on the degree CAN be extremely low. However, it is relatively cheap compared to a JD or MBA (especially if you can snag a scholarship). Even if the return isn't that great, a top MA-IR is still the most cost-effective way for people to break into certain parts of government and international organizations. Go read the bios of top policy makers...TONS of them have went to SAIS, Fletcher, etc... </p>
<p>If money is really your main concern, the degree is also flexible to work like an MBA if you market it right. Know who the largest recruiter at Kennedy is? McKinsey & Co.</p>
<p>samonite16,</p>
<p>No, I actually think that jm is probably closer to the truth.</p>
<p>For one, the vast majority of IR grads will not go to KSG or SAIS, meaning that they are not likely to be courted by McKinsey in the first place. Even though IR/PS's admission figures are largely the same as the other top 10s, we don't get nearly as much attention as the top East Coast programs.</p>
<p>And even if you are at KSG or SAIS, you're not exactly guaranteed that spot at State or DoD even if you want it. I, and anyone else who's ever dealt with the feds, will tell you honestly that getting hired by the feds is a capricious process at best-- it's downright random at worst. </p>
<p>Yes, MAs in IR do give more options than just BAs do, but so what? Most people will not get scholarships from the top programs, and after you've racked up another $40-$60K (this is not unusual in these programs) of debt, you can't even afford to go do the "good" work.</p>
<p>Seriously though, if you go private sector, the MBA is far more cost effective in the long run. That's the biggest problem with the MAs in IR-- they don't compare to most MBAs for the private sector, and most people who are good enough for top IR programs can at least get into a decent MBA program, where the returns are likely to be higher.</p>
<p>The sad part? MBAs do just fine in federal employment anyway.</p>
<p>^^^^^</p>
<p>First of all, it's pretty well-nigh impossible to get hired to work at McKinsey out of Harvard/Kennedy or SAIS, etc. People that do fairly typically had sufficient experience beforehand anyway. The good thing I guess is if they had this experience, at least they won't get demerited for having gone to these programs -- but they won't be helped a whole lot either. The exception may be people who are willing to be hired as BA holders such as SAIS MA/Hopkins BA joint degree holders.</p>
<p>Having been admitted to top 10 MBA programs more than once and opted to go to SAIS, I have really mixed feelings about the question. On the one hand, I think the statement that one can end up in debt $50K and temping in Washington out of some of these schools is entirely true. Since I did same before going into consulting. (Actually, I liked temping for a bit, but I can't say I was achieving a dream.)</p>
<p>On the other hand, I had way more fun and continue to be way more engaged in the things I studied intellectually than if I had gone to business school. But perhaps that's a poor degree to compare with. The MBAs I know from top programs have said more than once to me "I could have learned the knowledge I use from Wharton/Harvard/Berkeley fill in the blank top b-school in 1 month (one said) in a semester (others have said)." Two years is way too long for the coursework of a typical MBA program, though I agree that going through the "wash" of these programs sets one up well to get that first job out of grad school. </p>
<p>Indeed, there's no doubt coming out of an MBA program sets up people to have a much larger range of business job possibilities. I simply would also measure the cost question in terms of the relative interest/boredom one feels toward the subject matter. When I went up againt a top 3 school MBA graduate to get the job I have now, I put to rest any inadequacy I may have once felt about not getting that degree. I love what I learned at SAIS, and I tend to view people that hold MBA learning in higher regard as being textureless dweebs.</p>
<p>But it's true they might be a lot more hireable, on the whole....</p>
<p>The best answer? Perhaps it is to get a dual degree....</p>
<p>
[quote]
If money is really your main concern, the degree is also flexible to work like an MBA if you market it right. Know who the largest recruiter at Kennedy is? McKinsey & Co.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, after I wrote what I wrote I looked up and saw this -- and I may stand to be corrected in this. But when I graduated from SAIS, there was maybe one European who got into McKinsey with just a SAIS degree as opposed to a SAIS/Wharton dual degree. But that's SAIS, not Kennedy.</p>
<p>I think that what I can say about my degree that none of my "top MBA" friends can say is that I studied 2 more years of a language, learned about political situations in countries I'm interested in, and got to do an internship abroad.</p>
<p>Plus, I work side-by-side with people who have a boat load more international experience than the average MBA.</p>
<p>I just don't know that the market values me much more for any of this.</p>
<p>I would be interested in knowing how incredulous, volscio, and UCLAri feel about MPA and MPP's in regards to marketability prior to graduation. The feeling I get is that MPAs lead to, in many cases, very interesting work and are alot less broad and much more marketably than IR degrees. No doubt that they are less marketable than a MBA degree, but with a MBA you often end up doing consulting anyways, which is a route I am not very keen on.</p>
<p>None of my classmates (as far as I can tell) are just loafing through the program with unrealistic expectations of what they hope to attain. Certainly many of them are not sure what they want to do eventually, but given the nature of the work that they'll likely be doing, versatility seems to be a common trait and unique to the IR programs.</p>
<p>I still maintain that anyone who's seeking a finance/econ/hardcore business job should not be in an IR program to begin with. Go get a freaking MBA!</p>
<p>An IR is not a PP or PA -- why do people talk about these degrees interchangeably? I came to get an IR background, and I'm getting it in spades. The change in my classmates in just a few short months is astounding.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. Arguing about these degrees like they can recreate you into a different person is dumb. You have to be a pretty talented person to begin with...and you have to have a marketable personality. No degree can really give you that. If you're paying this much and you're not going to exploit what's being offered to you to the fullest, then yes, you are definitely wasting your money... But if you use your time wisely, you will be a far better person in the end.</p>
<p>What I can say is that the IR folks are really interesting people...and quite different than others.</p>
<p>Anyway I guess my point is that I don't understand all the usual anti-IR blabber at all.</p>
<p>Volscio,</p>
<p>It's not that I'm "anti-IR." I'm not anti-IR at all. I've said again and again that I'm perfectly happy with my overall prospects. I just think that people have overwhelmingly unrealistic expectations about the degree and the finances of it all.</p>
<p>Many people with IR degrees will go on to do interesting work, but is it worth tens of thousands of dollars in debt? I'm not so sure.</p>
<p>JMleadpipe: MPA vs. MA</p>
<p>I've had several friends go through places like Kennedy (Harvard), Woody Wo (Princeton), Goldman (Berkeley) to get MPAs/MPPs. And several others through SAIS, SIPA, Fletcher, IR/PS etc to get their MAs or PhDs.</p>
<p>If you want to do government work straight up from a technocratic angle, get an MPA. There is more policy analysis and a greater emphasis on quantitative tools to to this than with the typical MA in IR. This is true even IMO even though SAIS has a lot of econ and a very good set of finance classes and Fletcher had a great intensive bus. strategy course, etc.</p>
<p>I think to the extent that these programs teach these kinds of skills, there is greater marketability in the private sector in some areas needing demonstrated tech skills -- e.g., parts of consulting, some parts of finance, etc. </p>
<p>But in my case, if I were shooting for any more practicality from my degree, I think it would have been better just to get an MBA. With the exception perhaps of WW at Princeton (though this may have changed given the lawsuit going on against the perceived misuse of funds by the school from a large endowment donor), these schools are basically as expensive as MBAs anyway and when I looked at the courses that a lot of my KSG friends had taken my breath was taken away by the lack of coursework in anything that I found interesting (and I'm a bit of a geek). Every year at SAIS there were one or two transfers from KSG or like places by people who wanted the clear IR experience vs. to be around the overall public policy milieu.</p>
<p>Again, I come back to the notion that the 3-year degree (MA from SAIS or MBA from Wharton or another top 10/15 place) might be optimal if these are your concerns. </p>
<p>The final thing is in terms of marketability: no matter what degree one is getting from Harvard or Princeton, it has a marketability premium. That's a complaint I've heard from several friends at KSG in particular; it has its share of prestige whores.</p>
<p>Incredulous,</p>
<p>Thanks alot for the thoughful post.</p>
<p>In regards to the MPA vs. IR degree, I have no real interest in getting an IR degree so it isnt much of a concern for me. I did look into MBA programs, but got turned off by the fact that MBAs are supposed to be used in the corporate world, and if they arent, it's a problem. For instance, in rankings MBAs Forbes et al. look at earnings before and after the completion of the MBA as the main factors for their rankings. I know that money is important, but I always felt I wanted a degree that would allow me to live comfortably and move up the pay scale while allowing me to do something I wasnt morally opposed to. Im not saying MBAs are evil, but it seems like they put more of an emphasis on pure money making.</p>
<p>As of now, I am most interested in the MPA/MPP programs at Brekeley, UCLA, and Michigan, because they all seem to be practical and alot less filled with prestige whores than KSG, SIPA, and the like. Any thoughs on these schools?</p>
<p>I tend to think that UCLA's program is a bit too new to really say much, other than you get to ride on the name.</p>
<p>Ari,</p>
<p>I don't mind going somewhere with a new program as long as it guarantees me I will get a good education that will prepare me for the job market. I am really, really, wary of places like KSG, SIPA, and to a lesser extent, SAIS, since I perceive them to largely be programs that rely on the power of their name brand to get out of actually teaching their students anything. This may be innaccurate, but it's the impression I get nonetheless. Do you know anything about UCLA's program?</p>
<p>I think that UCLA's program is good for its age, but I've heard that it still has a few kinks to work out. One person I know here at IR/PS was considering them. Let me ask her what she thought, and I'll get back to you. If I don't post my response in a week or so, remind me.</p>
<p>Thanks alot, Ari.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am really, really, wary of places like KSG, SIPA, and to a lesser extent, SAIS, since I perceive them to largely be programs that rely on the power of their name brand to get out of actually teaching their students anything.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can only speak to this with respect to SAIS. Like any place, SAIS has aspects that are weak, professors that use the position at SAIS to avoid hard work and stay in the swim in consulting and policy advising. But what you said is patently false. There are a lot of tremendous learning opportunities at SAIS -- and I imagine at SIPA and KSG. And there are undoubtedly a lot of areas where these other schools have weaknesses too.</p>
<p>I don't see how SAIS has such a great brand name. Whenever I told people I was going to John Hopkins, they congratulated me for being at a fine, fine medical school. And outside of a narrow band of people who care about IR SAIS has pretty much zero name recognition. Harvard and Columbia have stronger brands, IMO.</p>
<p>Finally, this is a big question with so-called professional MAs across the board. With respect to whether people come out of programs like SAIS/SIPA, KSG/Berkeley(Goldman), or MBA programs with useful knowledge, bear in mind I've had friends who graduated from top MBA programs tell me that everything they learned of usefulness could have been taught in one month to one semester. There's a lot of fluff.</p>
<p>But aside from those questions, do what you've already done. You have no interest and apparently no respect for MAs in IR. There is much to be said for the viewpoint that one doesn't come out of a place like SIPA or SAIS with well developed hard skills, but some of the people I met at SAIS were among the most amazing people I'll ever meet in my life. Worldly, well-educated, accomplished -- and they've gone on to keep a great record of accomplishment since. Soft skills are underrated for one and for two you don't sound like you're interested so much in an international career (maybe I misread), so you don't respect some real skills that folks who go there both enter and leave with. Enough.</p>
<p>MBAs are used in the non-profit world too. It is true that the trend has been going against this, but still you can go far. I'd still consider the MBA if you could get into a top 25 program and you think you want to do something that uses skills in finance, marketing, management. The fact is that if you end up in the governmental or non-profit sectors, you'll be more respected if you have an MBA than an MPA/MPP. This partly depends on if for instance you received an MBA from let's say UNC vs. Harvard or perhaps Berkeley. In the latter case, you might get further with the schools with the greater name. But if you have an MBA from let's say Yale or UCLA (top 15, let's say), it starts getting fuzzier for a lot of jobs. If you got into a top 10 school -- and certainly a top 5 -- MBA program, it gets more and more obvious what you're giving up. But if you definitely want to do public policy analysis/work what I say is irrelevant.</p>
<p>Indreculous,</p>
<p>I have tremendous respect for individuals who go into IR programs with a clear career path and then proceed to use their IR studies to further their career goals and educate themselves. What I take issue with are students who want apply to IR programs because they want to "see the world" as well as students who apply to Columbia or Harvard not because they have any need or desire for an IR degree or plan on using it to actually do anything related to IR, but because they want a degree from Harvard or Columbia. My impression from talking with KSG and SIPA students is that there are a great many of these at both places.
However, I agree with your central point which is that at all top IR programs, the opportunities to learn and enrich yourself are truly boundless.</p>