<p>My best friend and I are confused.</p>
<p>She thought that Div 1 sports institutions have to give athletic scholarships and make sure women got as many as men.</p>
<p>I thought that Ivy League schools are Div 1 for the most part for most sports, but cannot give athletic scholarships.</p>
<p>Those of you with Ivy League kids who are athletes, especially track, please help!!!</p>
<p>You are correct. The IVYs are Div. I but they do not give out athletic scholarships. They do recruit for athletics but no scholarships are involved.</p>
<p>Technically Ivy = Division 1A, with slightly different restrictions than regular D1, and scholarships are the big difference.</p>
<p>Title IX does not require the equal distribution of athletic financial assistance. It requires that the percentage of athletic financial assistance provided to men and women be within 1%, absent legitmate nondiscriminatory reasons, of the percentage of athletes by sex. So if women make up 35% of the athletes in any particular school, they must receive, absent legitimate nondiscriminatory reasons, anywhere from 34-36% of the total amount of athletic financial assistance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Technically Ivy = Division 1A, with slightly different restrictions than regular D1, and scholarships are the big difference.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>the ivy league is division 1. period. the only time the question of d1a and d1aa (these are in the process of being renamed) comes into play is when youre talking about football, where the ivy league participates in d1aa. d1aa schools have slightly lower scholarship totals (65 v 85?) in that sport.</p>
<p>no other sport is divided within d1 and thus scholarship rules are the same for all d1 schools in every other sport. the lack of scholarships in the ivy league is conference policy, not ncaa rule. </p>
<p>on tsdads comments, only providing 35% of athletic funding to women would fail another title ix test assuming the school has relatively equal numbers of male and female students. this is why womens athletic teams, especially swimming and track, are often larger than their male counterparts; they make up for football. ncaa scholarshp limits make this more difficult for major d1 programs than the ivy league, however, since its easier to add 80 female nonscholarship athletes to rosters than 80 female scholarship athletes due to scholarship limits in every sport.</p>
<p>Additionally, nowhere is it written that a D1 or D2 school has to give out any specific number of scholarships in any sport. Each sport has a specific limit on maximums. It is up to the school to decided what to fund. My son is a wrestler and there is a maximum of 9.9 scholarships in wrestling in D1 and 9 in D2. D3 has, as you know, no athletic scholarships. With 10 starters, that is less than one scholarship per starter. In D1, there are powerhouses that use all 9.9 and split them up very effectively, and there are many, MANY D1 wrestling programs operating on 1-2 scholarships for the whole team total. In almost all instances, these teams are much less competitive. The Ivies are an exception in wrestling, mostly due the the finaincial aid policies of the schools and the league, allowing in particular Harvard and Cornell to be extremely competitive against even the big state flagship Us as of late.</p>
<p>One point about Title IX, the opportunities have to be equal. That means that in many sports at some schools turn away walk-ons for men's teams, because there aren't enough participants on women's teams. Head D1 and D2 coaches have both told me that they have to have tryouts because their roster sizes are limited due to lack of participation in women's sports. The money is there, but it would tip the scales towards the men's side. Not only is there a formula for scholarships, but also for non-scholarship athletes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
on tsdads comments, only providing 35% of athletic funding to women would fail another title ix test assuming the school has relatively equal numbers of male and female students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are confusing two different Title IX analyses. The determination of how athletic financial assistance should be distribited is a separate analysis, using different data, from determining whether a school is demonstrating that it is meeting the interest and abilities of members of each sex. </p>
<p>The scholarship determination is as I described it above. The determination on interests and abilites involves a three-part test. Only one of the three parts has to be met and Title IX doesn't value one over the other. </p>
<p>The first test for compliance seems to get the most attention, and is the hardest to meet. If the percentage of athletes by sex is equivalent to the number of full-time undergraduates by sex a college is in compliance with Title IX as it applies to the interest and abilities portion of Title IX. So if 50% of the undergraduates are female, and you wish to use this part of the three-part test to show compliance, with you would expect that roughly 50% of the athletes would be female. It is virtually impossible to neet that test in any school that has a football team.</p>
<p>If you can't demonstrate compliance by meeting part 1 there are two other ways you can show compliance.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>where members of one sex are underrepresented in the athletics program, whether the institution can show a continuing practice of program expansion responsive to the developing interests and abilities of that sex; or</p></li>
<li><p>the present program accommodates the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Read the following:</p>
<p>Then read the following, which repreents changes in the third test by the current administration, which has been widely rejected by colleges. It's a piece of legal crap, and reason 254 I retired from the Federal government.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One point about Title IX, the opportunities have to be equal. That means that in many sports at some schools turn away walk-ons for men's teams, because there aren't enough participants on women's teams. Head D1 and D2 coaches have both told me that they have to have tryouts because their roster sizes are limited due to lack of participation in women's sports. The money is there, but it would tip the scales towards the men's side. Not only is there a formula for scholarships, but also for non-scholarship athletes.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They do not have to do it that way. They're doing it to meet part 1 of the three-part test rather than choosing to meet parts 2 or 3. It's the college's call how they want to obey a law that has been on the books for over 30 years, but they have alternatives. By cutting men's sports, or using roster management, rather than expanding opportunities for women, they save money and get to blame Title IX for cutting back on participation opportunities for men.</p>
<p>alumother - I turned down several Ivy league schools to go the Div.1 scholarship route. I was a track athlete - fortunate to be a national champion in my event. I went to a school ranked in the USNWR top 10, so I can't say I was denied any privilege, really, but unless a person really is totally comitted to being a virtual professional athlete (with perhaps a career in the sport - including coaching), I would avoid Div. 1 athletic scholarships at almost any cost. Even exceptional students on athletic scholarship feel the pull away from academics. The scholarships are renewable on a year to year basis and can be pulled for virtually any reason. In Div. 1 track, to compete even passably against the Arkansas' or Tennessee's of the athletic world, a 30 hour a week commitment is required - year round. The fatigue carried from day to day is significant, and given the pressure of studies, burn-out is a real factor and it is high. The Ivies can be just as demanding - but if a track athlete is good enough to get a Div. 1 scholarship (particularly a guy, because Title IX has hit guys hard in non-revenue sports), they frankly are likely far more talented than their teammates and can have the leverage to have a more balanced life than they would at a Div. 1 athletic factory. The only thing more demanding that I can imagine is to be a quality Div. 1 athlete at the service academies. </p>
<p>I also found that the whole Div. 1 scholarship deal delays getting on with the real world - there is too much focus on athletics and not enough on getting academically and intellectually prepared for the world. Our best US distance runner ever - Frank Shorter - went to Yale - and while he was good in college - he really improved thereafter - when he made the conscious and mature choice, having not been scorched by a three season, doubling and tripling at multiple track meets and relays experience that is the hallmark of Div. 1 track - to focus on athletics. If you want to know more, let me know. I speak from the experience of 90 mile weeks, falling asleep in class, being incredibly sore about 90% of the time, and doing ill-planned things like typing an honors thesis at three in the morning after running two Penn Relays Championship of America relays, I don't regret it - it was living on the edge - but frankly, if I could have found a way to deal with single mother economics (and I could have, but the athletic scholarship gave me an easy no thought way out in terms of planning and preparation - dumb 18 year old kid I was), I would have had far more control, and more academic purpose and balance, if I had opted for a Princeton or one of the better LAC's like Williams or Amherst.</p>
<p>I can't speakt to the various % in Div one- but an aquaintance who competes internationally was at USC on a quite generous scholarship for track( woman)</p>
<p>Regardless of why a specific institution chooses to comply with Title IX in one way or another, it is in fact because of Title IX and required compliance. So yes, if there was no T9, then they would probably not have roster limits, and therefore you can blame T9. I am not sure how these schools would offer more opportunities for women, in many cases their women's sports rosters are so small they can barely field a team, not because of limits but due to lack of interest. Also, in many instances in wrestling (I cannot speak to other sports because I have no direct knowledge), the scholarships and much or all of the program is funded by boosters, camps, or a specific outside directed donation, witness Bucknell, which rejoined wrestling thanks to a $5M donation, and the U of MD, which funds much of it's wrestling scholarships with booster/outside money. Also, as you know, wrestling is one of the hardest hit sports since there is basically a lack of a female counterpart.</p>
<p>FWIW, my kids is going D3 and is happy as a clam. And his sister might just be the benefactor of T9 as she is an athlete as well still a few years away. </p>
<p>I don't think the OP was trying to start a nationwide T9 debate, so I'll drop it at this point and not hijack the thread.</p>
<p>Found this from Ivy League Sports:</p>
<p>TO: Students Interested in Ivy League Intercollegiate Athletics</p>
<p>FROM: Ivy League Deans and Directors of Admission and Directors of Athletics</p>
<p>We welcome your interest in seeking an education at an Ivy League institution and participating in our athletic programs. The Ivy League is committed to seeking individuals who are remarkable both as students and as athletes. This statement is intended to explain the most important aspects of the Ivy admission process to students who seek intercollegiate athletic competition.</p>
<p>The principles that govern admission of Ivy students who are athletes are the same as for all other Ivy applicants. Each Ivy institution:</p>
<ul>
<li>admits all candidates including athletes on the basis of their achievements and potential as students and on their other personal accomplishments;</li>
</ul>
<p>**** provides financial aid to all students only on the basis of need, as determined by each institution; and,</p>
<ul>
<li>provides that no student be required to engage in athletic competition as a condition of receiving financial aid.***</li>
</ul>
<p>Recruitment of students who want to compete in Ivy intercollegiate athletics may involve substantial contact with coaches as well as admission officers. Ivy coaches are both expert in their respective sports and interested in and sensitive to the academic and social issues that concern college students. They are encouraged to be knowledgeable about institutional admissions and financial aid standards, and to be able to discuss those standards with prospective students.</p>
<p>**** At each Ivy institution, however, only the Admissions Office has the authority to admit an applicant and only the Financial Aid Office has the authority to determine financial aid precisely and to notify students officially of their actual or estimated awards.***</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Admissions Offices at each Ivy school may offer some athletic and other candidates a "likely" letter, which has the effect of a formal letter of admission provided the candidate continues to have a satisfactory secondary school experience. Coaches may initiate the requests for these letters, but only the office of admission can issue a"likely" letter.</p></li>
<li><p>A coach may both inquire about a candidate's level of commitment to an Ivy institution, or interest in attending that Ivy institution, and encourage that interest. However, a candidate may not be required to withdraw, or not make, other applications, or to refrain from visiting another institution, as a condition for receiving a "likely" letter.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>For applicants who are being recruited as athletes, choosing a college may be even more complicated than it is for non-athletes. We suggest that you consider carefully each of the following recommendations.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Start learning about institutions in which you may be interested as early as you can. The Ivy League web site, which is at <a href="http://www.ivyleaguesports.com%5B/url%5D">www.ivyleaguesports.com</a>, is linked to the general admission, financial aid and athletic web sites at each Ivy League institution.</p></li>
<li><p>Become familiar with the institutions' suggested secondary school curricula and testing requirements. Take the SAT-1 or ACT tests at times that will fit with the application process. Some Ivy institutions either prefer or require SAT-II tests as well, and you should be familiar with those requirements.</p></li>
<li><p>Visit one or more institutions as early in the process as possible.</p></li>
<li><p>Become familiar with institutions' application deadlines for early and regular admission and be prepared to file a full admission application in a timely manner.</p></li>
<li><p>Apply to be certified as an "initial qualifier" through the NCAA Division I Certification Clearinghouse. Information about the Clearinghouse and other NCAA rules for prospective student-athletes is available from your secondary school counselor, from the NCAA at its website or on the Ivy League web site, <a href="http://www.ivyleaguesports.com%5B/url%5D">www.ivyleaguesports.com</a>.</p></li>
<li><p>Above all, begin as early as you can to think about what kind of academic, athletic and personal experience you would like to have in college and what kind of college or university will best provide it. The admissions process requires institutions to make decisions about you, but even more, it gives you both the chance and the responsibility to make decisions about yourself.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>In conclusion, we hope this information is helpful and we urge you to call or write if you have further questions or if any problems or issues arise. Best wishes for a rewarding and productive senior year.</p>
<p>Suzy Favor Hamilton of Wisconsin won more NCAA titles than she can count and still graduated and is enjoying a fine career in art and track.</p>
<p>This is absolutely wonderful information and I cannot thank you all enough. Mam1959, that is quite a compelling story. </p>
<p>I asked this question because my friend's second daughter runs track and is doing very well as a sophomore. She is also a straight A student. I am wondering - at what level of performance do coaches find you vs. you find them? For example, we are in California. Dyestat lists the times etc. Do coaches read those? At what level do you have to be - top 5 in your event? Top 10? Top 50?</p>
<p>Thanks for any more information and again for what you have already told me.</p>
<p>barrons -you are making my point. Suzy Favor Hamilton has had an incredible track career, and has built a nice art portfolio on the side (and is a truly fine person who is now a new mother). But there is no way one can do what she has done and have had a challenging career in medicine, law, academics or business. And moreover, she was a NCAA champion very early on at UW - meaning that out of high school she didn't need much improvement - and it made eminent sense to really focus on athletics (although she fought, as she publicly admits, an eating disorder in school - not uncommon with track athletes subject to the track mania), especially with Peter Tegen as her coach - a guy that had delivered world class track athletes before. But SFH is the rare person who can sensibly make the commitment early on to a sport that pays only an incredible few. (Bob Kennedy from Indiana Univ. was another - a NCAA champ as a freshman). The rest do it at their peril of neglecting or delaying something that will likely be their life's work - so take my comments in that context.</p>
<p>alum - it really depends on the event in track. A hammer thrower is not going to attract interest like a multiple event sprinter or a versatile middle distance runner. But if your friend's daughter is in the top 10 in the State of California (a powerhouse state), there likely will be a host of Div. 1 programs that likely not only want her, but give her scholarships as well. Any if she has the grades and scores in within their median range, you can be sure the Ivies will want her and it will be a big factor in admission. </p>
<p>Ironically, the two scholarship granting schools in the USNWR Top 10 have powerhouse XC and track programs (for women, not men) and a woman likely has to be in the top 10 in the country range to attract scholarship money. The admission preference, however, would likely still obtain if an athlete just fell short of that level.</p>
<p>UW just had a male win a major scholar-athlete award. He was Big 10 decath. champ and majored in biochemistry. He is going to Med school. But these types are rare for sure.</p>
<p>barrons - the distinction lies in the event. The decathalon is practiced by a handful, and while the NCAA champion may be national class and perhaps even marginally world class, the entire field in the running events is national class and the All Americans are indeed world class. This is not to derogate this young man's accomplishments (my high school teammate was a Big 10 decathalon champ at UW), but to suggest that he is an outlier. Given the NCAA scholarship limit, and the fact that UW is the reigning champ in XC and has a truckload of All American distance runners on scholarship, he likely is not on scholarship - as good as he is - its only worth 10 points to win the decathalon in the Big 10's as compared to the 20-25 each that Chris Solinksy and Simon Bairu (their current NCAA champs) can rack up in the Big 10 championships. So again I think you have chosen an example that proves, rather than derogates, my point. He likely manages his time better without the pressure of that scholarship constantly hanging overhead. </p>
<p>And so long as you are the subject, Solinsky is the best distance talent we have had since Alan Webb (note a track athlete that left University of Michigan and the scholarship grind to be a professional track athlete - I happen to know him well and he again makes my point about the conflict between NCAA scholarships, school, and academic success) and Solinksy is one of the rare birds who should place all of his eggs in the track basket. He will win the 5k this summer, and beat a number of world class foreign athletes in so doing, and likely scrape under (it is that hard), the Olympic A standard.</p>
<p>Alumother:
If she is distance, she might for example be contacted if a Footlocker national finalist, but the vast majority of potential D1 athletes have to go find the program and initiate the contact. She may receive letters from schools asking her to express interest, but those for the most part are just form letters, essentially junk mail, and any decent runner receives piles of them. My 2 cents is, 1st decide what her education/career goals are, pick a roster of schools based on that goal and then go study those school team rosters in her event. The web is filled with performance information about these athletes and some reasonable basis of comparison will be possible. If there is a potential match academically and athletically, then start contacting and sending info to the coaches - you will find out in a hurry the level of interest, time requirements, event needs, etc. If you are passive, you have a good chance of ending up at a program that selects you, rather than vice versa, or be cut out altogether as teams are filled by recruiting year - remember that coaches are severely restricted in contacting athletes until relatively late in the game. Also, times are much more important than finishes (at least for track based events). And for the ivies, remember that although financial aid may not be readily available based on family finances, athletics can provide an admission tip of immeasurable value - the strength of that tip from the coach is an important part of your agenda. (And caveat: I am more familiar with boys side than girls; many things are different, and maybe easier, for the girls side.) And search these CC archives, there are lots of threads on these issues.</p>
<p>Nate was orignially a football recruit but had an injury that prevented him from playing football. Have to believe he still would have done it all.</p>
<p>I believe Webb hated the UM coach and felt he was regressing so he left.</p>