<p>Alum (#136),</p>
<p>I agree that it would be a fantastic outcome, especially since everything Tribecamom wrote in #139 is exactly what I have heard about Harvard's program under the new coach.</p>
<p>Tribecamom- I don't think you know much about my son's performance. He didn't run senior year due to injury. So, as you say, "chill out". I never questioned Princeton's ability to recruit. The coach is an excellent recruiter, although he isn't quite as good at getting all his recruits IN to Princeton! I question how the runners develop from beginning to end. The Harvard coach does deserve a chance and I think he is a good coach. The question is whether the program and the coach will get the support from the AD and the rest of the university which it never had.</p>
<p>Lots of great perspectives on coaches. Does anyone know whether the Dyestat.com "college choice" web link is an accurate reflection of Class of 2011 recruits? It seems some colleges have loads of new talent coming in, while others have a dearth. However, this could be a misperception since entries may be submitted by athletes themselves rather than by the schools. Even so, one gets the impression that at least for the Ivies distance recruiting goes in waves. Also, any thoughts on the current Yale program (particularly on the Women's side)? Mark Young has had great success in the past -- and I've heard good things about him -- but Yale appears to have less new talent than say Harvard, Brown or Princeton. Again, this may be a misperception. I reckon it's nice to run on a competitive team with strong camaraderie.</p>
<p>The college list on dyestat isn't ever complete, but it can give you a good idea. Many of the athletes self-report. You can go on letsrun and ask for info on coaches and programs, but most of the negatives about the Ivy coaches gets pulled pretty fast because one of the site owners is the Cornell coach. My personal view is that the best combination of running and academics to be found is at Williams.<br>
I don't know about the Yale women's program. Men's is decent.</p>
<p>
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Many runners who choose Harvard wind up quitting the teams early in their collegiate careers.
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<p>Anecdotal evidence of this from our community. Twin sisters were recruited to run distance at Harvard, both state-ranked here in California. They both quit running after their freshman year (05/06) to concentrate on academics, which they were finding difficult to maintain (understandable).</p>
<p>Aside: It sort of makes me mad because S was waitlisted at Harvard that same year that they were admitted... according to his interviewer who recommended him highly, he was more academically qualified than they were, but she said later to me "they have the legs"... then they ended up not even staying on the team... oh well, water under the bridge, and as the mom of a high school athlete who will be applying to college this fall, I can understand how it could happen.</p>
<p>MomOfWildChild, if you are questioning how runners develop in Princeton's program, let me use the example of Princeton's current #1 runner, a rising senior from CT. In HS, he ran in the 9:30s for the 3200, and placed I believe top 40 at FLNE, both solid, but not outstanding accomplishments. Now, he's a 4:01 miler, 8:00 in the 3k, and 13:50 in the 5k. He's a three time All-American. </p>
<p>I don't care what you say about Dolan's experience or credentials or whatever, but if a coach can get a 9:30 kid to be a three time All-American before his senior year, the coach is doing something right.</p>
<p>However, there's a lot more to consider than just the quality of the coach in tracking runners improvements. In an environment like Princeton's this year, with tons of competitive runners, great recruits coming in, and presumably very high goals for the XC team this season, you will see a fantastic team.</p>
<p>That particular Princeton runner is very talented and is ONE runner. He did the right thing in high school- lower mileage- and responded well to the higher mileage of college. That doesn't show a pattern of Dolan developing talent well. Time wil tell. I like the man. I'm just saying right now there hasn't been a lot of evidence of improvement. Yes, he gets good recruits. If he can get them past admissions.</p>
<p>Haha OK good logic. Let's take the best example of improvement on the Princeton team and ignore his improvement just because he's only one exceptional runner. When he was running in the 9:30's he wasn't an exceptional runner, but a combination of the increase in mileage, his own personal drive, and the coaching and environment at Princeton led to him being an All-American. What about the improvement of the runner from Oregon, or the one from Michigan?</p>
<p>A young Princeton team won XC Heps, and their distance squad provided at least half of the points for their Indoor Heps win. Just look at the results from this last year of track. Great PRs all around. Tons of guys under 14:30 and 4:10, guys who were decent but nothing spectacular in HS. Although all of the distance guys had horrible days at Outdoor Heps, (8:56 steeplers running 9:30s, top guys not scoring in the 5k and 10k and off their prs by at least a minute) The runners at Princeton aren't necessarily more talented than those at the other Ivies, and last years recruits didn't quite have as great of debuts as they should have, (namely a certain runner from Cali). And either none of the top guys ever seem to be injured (knock on wood), or they recover from injuries very quickly. </p>
<p>The same can be argued for any coach though about developing talent, everyone gets great recruits that fizzle out and great recruits that do very well. It's as much a function of the runner's desire as it is the coach's, especially in an almost completely individual sport like track. However, this year's class is a lot stronger than previous ones, and is definitely one of the best in the country, especially with their great depth in the 3200 and 2mile. It'll be interesting to see how all of the newcomers stack up when teamed up with the veterans. </p>
<p>And, the tough admissions of Princeton show you just how talented these guys are. All are incredibly intelligent and involved in so many different ways. I take it from your tone that your son had a bit of a disappointment with his own Princeton admissions decision.</p>
<p>Not at all. My son did not apply to Princeton, although he was recruited early on. In fact, his first call on July 1 was from the Princeton coach. I like the coach a lot. I hope the team does well. I think developing runners at academically intense school is hard. I DO know that some extremely qualified kids were led to believe they would be accepted and were not- including the Texas state champ in the 800 (a couple of years ago).</p>
<p>Well, here's another data point to help establish the pattern at Princeton.</p>
<p>Paul Rosa, Princeton captain last year, was a good but not great NJ runner. He never ran faster than 16:40 or so at Holmdel (compare to new Princeton recruits Soloff (15:5x) and Salvatore (16:15)). </p>
<p>Rosa finished 5th at Heps last year in 24:48. </p>
<p>Compare to Ari Zamir, Brown runner, 20th at Heps last year at 25:15. Zamir's Holmdel pr is 15:53 (smoking), he was also a VERY fast hs miler. </p>
<p>Brian Goldberg, the first Penn finisher last year at 25:02, had a Holmdel pr considerably better than Rosa too, 16:20.</p>
<p>Now both Zamir and Goldberg are younger than Rosa, less college experience, but the fact that Rosa has improved to the point where he is way out in front of these two is strong indication to me that he has been very well coached.</p>
<p>Jimmy Wyner, 3rd last year at 24:32, is also a NJ kid. His Holmdel pr is 16:06, and he is a wicked 800 runner, a true HS track star making good at Cornell. That Rosa is anywhere near a guy like Wyner at Heps is great testament to his improvement.</p>
<p>As far as the admissions problems at Princeton MomofWildChild has alluded to several times, this is old news that I seriously doubt will be repeated under the now more seasoned Dolan. There were two recent instances of excellent athletes applying ED, presumably auto admits, who were rejected. One was a great NJ 800 kid, the other was a sprinter from Texas if I remember correctly? I know the NJ kid did not have a likely letter. My husband was told that in at least one of these cases the kid was not as advertised, scores/grades did not match what the coach was told and represented to the admissions office. I'm sure Silver12065 can give us an idea of the degree to which the coaching staff is now checking credentials. There also seems to be a greater use of likely letters now by the track team, essentially a pre-approval that will help eliminate this problem. It will be interesting to see how loss of early option at Harvard and Princeton this year (2012) will affect athletic recruiting. I think any Ivy recruit, especially at Harvard and Princeton, is well advised to secure a likely letter to be absolutely sure of admittance. But the coaches will let you know what's up if you ask.</p>
<p>MomofWildChild, what will it take to show a pattern of Dolan developing talent well? </p>
<p>I just don't get the hostility towards Princeton track/xc. Harvard was more understandable, it is a program in transition. Princeton is established and kicking butt in the ivy league. Sure seems like sour grapes to me. </p>
<p>The quality of the talent recruited each year is an important indication of the quality of the program, including this ethereal ability to develop talent. Why? Because in the end the recruits themselves are in a much better position to know what's up and how they will fit with a given program than some moms arguing on CC.</p>
<p>I don't have any hostility at all towards Princeton track. I even have a tshirt! The OP asked about the various programs, and I stated my opinion, based on what I have learned and what I've read on letsrun.com.
The fact is, if someone really thinks they are going far with their running, they probably shouldn't be going to an Ivy. Of course there are a few exceptions, but the Weldon Johnsons and the Ben Trues are rare.<br>
I also am not overly critical of the admissions glitches. It is always a risk at non-scholarship schools. I'm sure Dolan has now figured it out and there will be fewer surprises.<br>
I don't understand your sour grapes comment. What part of "my son didn't apply to Princeton" isn't clear. He completely honed in on wanting a business school and chose his current school over my favorite, Williams, due to that educational desire. He has since changed his mind :), and so it goes. I would love to see ALL The Ivy running programs be great! I can't even comment on the program my son chose, since he hasn't run yet!</p>
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<p>Exactly. At the same time, I believe Ben True has decided to quit running to become a professional cross country skier or something. Last I heard from him, he wasn't going to be running anymore despite his unbelievable season.</p>
<p>I personally one friend who went to Princeton for track. He was a state 400m champion as well as New England record holder in the 300m. He ended up never improving upon his high school times and quit the team before junior year. I don't even think he broke 50.00 indoors at the Heps - a time he hadn't been OVER in his last two years in high school competition.</p>
<p>This year they're getting another one of my friends, an 8:56 two miler. I hope he improves, but I wouldn't bet on it.</p>
<p>Wow - this thread is really opening my eyes to the recruiting process before my D dives into it, thanks for all the info (she is a rising junior now). Her last two XC captains are at Harvard and Princeton respectively (the latter a two-time Footlocker Nat'l finalist, which with Ashley makes a great recruiting class in itself). She did report to campus early to get a class out of the way, which would make the academic load a little lighter during the season. Do Ivies do this as a rule, or as an option?</p>
<p>Hi all.</p>
<p>As the OP, I have seen the recent threads on recruiting. I am still helping my friend's daughter with her track things. She will be making an invited visit to a top Ivy this weekend. She would be thrilled to go there, as you can imagine, but what I am trying to do is help her understand the process.</p>
<p>Questions. 1. Is every invited visit an "official" visit? 2. Will all these visits if they are going to be offered happen in the next few weeks? 3. When she goes, what should she ask for from the coach? What are the right words? 4. If she is going to get an assist in her application because of her track, when will she know if this is happening?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>If the school is paying her way and she was invited, it is an "official" visit and counts as one of her 5 that she is allowed.</p>
<p>For track and cc, the official visits can extend into the spring. Cross country season is busy for many of the coaches, and some of the track kids are also playing high school football and can't make fall official visits.</p>
<p>The girl should ask the coach what assistance he can provide with the admisisons process. Some Ivys have a special application marked "Track Recruit" etc. Some Ivys do a pre-read during the summer based on scores and grades and have a good idea whether the applicant will be admitted. If this is her first choice, she might want to express whether or not she will be able to apply early decision.</p>
<p>She should keep her eyes open and use her gut to determine if she would be happy in the program.</p>
<p>Will she be allowed to room with a variety of students? Or will she have to room with the track team? Will she be allowed to attend freshman orientation or will practice interfere? What is the atmosphere on the team? What are their favorite courses? Does the team hang out with students from other walks of life? Can she see herself as one of those girls?</p>
<p>Attending an Ivy as a recruited athlete is a whole 'nother 'sperience.</p>
<p>There are already 14 public men's basketball commitments in the Ivies, to give you an idea (two of which were made in their junior years). No requirement that she room with track team. No such thing as athletic dorms at Ivies, tho team members gravitate toward one another often, and are often in same houses at Y and H and in same fraternities and sororities at Cornell. All Ivies tag the recruits and admission is far easier, though of course Academic Index is utilized (to give you an idea, I personally know of at least one 1190 old scale student-athlete at H, and not a star). Of course, many of the athletes are very top students. D, Princeton, H and Cornell have already "admitted" several of this year's juniors, especially in hockey, although of course not official yet. It is challenging and admirable to carry the dual load of student-athlete at the Ivies.</p>
<p>So track commitments are likely to be made later in the year than basketball, football, etc.?</p>
<p>And, as a follow on thought, what about track in the next level of college selectivity - i.e. WashU, Rice? Some of the schools in this level, like Georgetown, are actually better than Harvard, Yale, etc. in athletics. But it seems that WashU, Rice, etc., are perhaps looking at the same kids athletically as the Ivies? Yes? No? Thank you all for this help. The girl, as I have said, is a doll and a very good student too...</p>
<p>Gerogetown is not nearly as strong as Ivies in athletics, save for its largely special admit class of men's bb players. Wash U is another athletic step behind but Rice is equivalent, and baseball is exceptional. Cornell's women's and men's track are top 25 NCAA Division I programs and other Ivies are strong. You are right, in general, that if your daughter is the type of student and athlete who can go to Ivy, then she would fit well at other similar top flight academic schools, save Stanford most years. I am going to find the link to last year's NCAA track rankings to give you an idea of what schools are at the top.</p>
<p>Hehe it's not my daughter just so we are clear:). This girl is the type of student who has straight As in as many APs as she could take at a large Bay Area public high school. For a host of reasons she hasn't taken SATI or ACTs yet. Her SATIIs were high 600-low 700 I believe. It is probable that the SATIs and ACT will yield similar results. I am sure she could do the work at any school in the US. In my opinion, ideal for her would be a place like WashU, academically, but where I would think from what I see that her times would put her at the top of their women's track team for her events.</p>
<p>So if she is getting recruited by top Ivies - does that mean she'd be desirable for athletics at Wash U - where the academic statistics world is just that little bit more manageable....</p>
<p>I really appreciate your help. What she really needs is the top schools academically who would find her running to be a huge prize:).</p>