<p>Attended a college night presentation this evening. Several local schools were represented by admissions personnel, who answered questions in a panel-type presentation. As I had to leave before the Q and A, thought I would bring one of my questions here.</p>
<p>One of the admissions personnel (private college, not uber selective) kept saying she looks for "rigorous curriculum, AP courses, did you challenge yourself" etc. Fine enough, but it seems to me that they don't know whether a given student has chosen a particular course sequence which did not include an AP capstone (or perhaps was not the honors track) or whether that was their only option. And I mean in a HS where the honors and AP courses are offered. </p>
<p>How much weight do admissions personnel place on having taken the MOST rigorous curriculum? Would it be the deciding factor at a college with only a modest degree of selectivity, even if it was not the choice of the student?</p>
<p>I don’t think there is really a certain answer to this. I can tell you that even at some of the most elite colleges you don’t have to have taken the MOST rigorous curriculum. My oldest got into Harvard and Carnegie Mellon’s School of Computer Science without taking AP English or Literature. He did, however, take most of the school’s science APs , AP Econ, AP Latin and APUSH. His freshman year he had to take regular physics instead of honors physics because of a scheduling conflict. We asked the GC to mention that in her letter, but I don’t know if she did. </p>
<p>My younger son didn’t end up in honors math sophomore year, also because of a scheduling issue. Again we asked the GC to mention it. He also didn’t take AP English, but did take all the school’s AP History options and AP Bio, AP Physics C and AP Calc.</p>
<p>In both cases I think their course choices were in the most rigorous range, but they certainly could have taken even more APs than they did.</p>
<p>Theoretically the school’s report (where they describe the curriculum) could address some of these issues, (typical sequences etc), ours isn’t quite that detailed.</p>
<p>I think for a school of modest selectivity a modest number of APs is probably fine.</p>
<p>When I went to high school, they had a certain period that they always scheduled honors/AP English in, and certain other period that they always scheduled honors/AP math in. So a student who wanted to take honors/AP in both would never have a conflict. The few other AP courses that the school had were also given different periods to avoid conflict with English and math.</p>
<p>When we have met with at admissions counselors on various campus tours they bring up rigor. None of them have expected that EVERY class the kids take is an AP class. They expect to see SOME AP classes if your school offers them and they prefer to see those classes in the maths and sciences, even if your student isn’t going into a math or science field. It’s pretty common in our high school for the college bound kids to take 4 or 5 AP classes each year or a couple AP classes and a couple college classes from the University. When the kids have run down their class lists, the admissions staff have always commented that they have a VERY rigorous schedule. They expect to see one or two AP’s each year, maybe 3. This would be at fairly selective private schools but not HYP, etc.</p>
<p>If your school offers AP classes, the colleges do expect the students to take SOME of them. If they are offered and a student takes no AP classes, that is a negative.</p>
<p>Don’t ask your kids to sacrifice what they love in favor of one or two more APs or a slightly higher weighted GPA.</p>
<p>Too many kids who love music drop out of the band, orchestra, or choir so that they can add another AP (or at least an honors academic course) to their schedules in its place. </p>
<p>Too many kids refuse to take an elective that fascinates them because it isn’t AP. </p>
<p>My daughter stayed in the band all four years. My son took a sociology elective that wasn’t even honors, let alone AP. Nothing horrible happened to either of them.</p>
<p>I agree that there is no one, fixed answer. This is tangential to the perennial debate of whether it’s better to take a lot of AP/honors classes and possibly get a lower GPA or take lower-level classes and get a higher one.</p>
<p>My $0.02, having been through college applications twice now and with another round coming up next year, is that depending on how high your child is aiming, I think it’s good to have an AP or two (along with some honors), but beyond that it’s probably not going to matter. Keep in mind my kids were not aiming at Ivies, but more like CTCL-level schools. Neither had more than 2 APs and both did well with their admissions. (And it’s looking like my youngest will not have any APs, but I’m not overly worried given the schools he’ll likely apply to.)</p>
<p>I think the college admissions officials always <em>say</em> rigor of schedule is important. I just think it’s one of many factors they consider and others can offset a weakness there. (And I’ve heard a lot of anecdotal stories about kids from the same hs where the one with lower-level classes but higher GPA got into better schools.)</p>
<p>DS attends a rigorous private college prep. College counselor has advised us that very selective schools are looking for great GPA and “rigorous” curriculum - but not necessarily AP classes, particularly if student’s interests are stronger elsewhere, and that “honors” classes, at least at this school, are also acceptable choices. If student has a strong interest that differentiates student from the applicant pack, that’s as important as curriculum vigor.</p>
<p>We recently went to a college fair too, where several admissions officers participated in a panel discussion. ISU rep noted that “all schools’ GPAs are equally weighted” as statewide university policy - ie a 3.75 GPA from a weak inner-city school w/no AP classes is equal to a New Trier 3.75 GPA w/all AP classes. Last year, UIUC rep said same thing. So rigorous curriculum may actually penalize students.</p>
<p>Also, highly regarded private university, known for its very selective admission, also was represented at same panel discussion. Its rep indicated a “10 pt ACT spread” in accepted students - which seemed unlikely - and noted a “B student had a shot at admissions” (not for sports either). No one ventured to ask if the generous spread for benefit of URMs. She noted that a “C” in an AP class was ok if class was vigorously graded, noting that not all AP classes are same in content, vigor, or grading policy.</p>
Have you actually heard an admissions officer say that? I have not. Every admissions officer I’ve heard says something like “We expect to see some APs but of course you don’t have to take every single one. We expect you to take the ones that interest you.” or “The average MIT student has taken 5 APs.” I’ve never ever, ever heard them say they prefer science. In our high school because you can do high school biology in 8th grade, most of the top kids can easily fit in 2 science APs if they want to, but I am pretty sure many only do one, and use the science slot senior year to do AP Econ, AP Gov, AP Art, AP Music Theory. </p>
<p>Oh yeah, and when the admissions officer (from Vassar) was asked whether it was better to get an A in a regular class or a B in an AP class, she got this pained look and said, “couldn’t you just get an A in the AP class?” At which point all the other admissions officers on the panel laughed, but they didn’t answer the question either.</p>
<p>I expect that the adcoms probably look at the transcript and determine whether the classes look demanding or “most” demanding. However, you should be highly, highly, highly alert to the fact that your college counselor must indicate on his/her school recommendation form whether your courses were “most” demanding in terms of the courses offered at the school. It could be that that one checkmark by your counselor determines a great deal of the context in which the adcom views your transcript. You really need to get a very good handle with your school college counselor, as early as you can, as to THEIR views of your actual or projected coursework. It is my opinion that the checkbox they check on their rec form is dispositive in how the adcoms will then appreciate what they see on the transcript.</p>
<p>Perhaps one answer to this question would be “Choose an AP class in which you can get an A.” </p>
<p>If you excel at social studies but struggle with science, you might be better off choosing AP Psychology and AP Economics, rather than AP Chemistry and AP Biology.</p>
<p>There’s much to be said for playing to your strengths.</p>
<p>mathmom-yes, they have actually told us that if a student only takes a few AP classes they would prefer to see those in the math and science area. I specifically asked about AP classes because the kids were trying to decide which classes to take. DD was concerned about taking honors World vs AP World (not a fan of history classes) and the admissions counselor laughed and said that they already had more AP classes as sophomores than they generally see on a transcript for 4 years. The example she gave was that if a student takes 3 AP classes and they are APUSH, AP World and AP Psych and the next student took AP Calc, AP Chem and APUSH, the second student would be looked upon more favorably–all else “equal”.</p>
<p>At another highly selective private school we visited, in the presentation before the tours they told everyone flat out that AP classes in the math and science area were favored over history, psych, etc. They did say they like to see some from all disciplines but if you can only take a few, math and science are better.</p>
<p>You have to be careful of AP overload followed by a GPA swan dive. </p>
<p>D1 took 11 AP exams and got all 5s and is now in top private. She’s a die hard academic. She worked extremely hard. </p>
<p>D2 is a junior, took AP Physics B last year, got B in the class, but a 5 on the exam, 750+ SAT II in Physics. She’s in AP Bio probably getting a C and still hoping for a 5 on the exam. The class is the hardest class in the school and the teacher doesn’t curve. Most kids get 5s. I don’t know what to expect, but it wouldn’t surprise me if she gets her 5. I also expect that she’ll have competitive SATs, but her GPA has tanked junior year, which is a negative trend. </p>
<p>How does this look for selective colleges? Probably worse than if she had gotten As without the APs. There is no question her Numeric Index for the more selective schools will be lower than most of the admits. Will the rigor of the curriculum compensate? I don’t think so. Also, the school provides rough guidelines of class rank, and doesn’t weight GPA at all, so that will also hurt her. </p>
<p>Will it matter in college admissions? I expect that it will. She’s probably hurt her chances at many of the schools that we’ve looked at, including her favorite. </p>
<p>Does she have regrets? No, she’s a happy kid who loves Bio, full speed ahead. </p>
<p>Will she be able to find a college that she’s happy with? I think so. We’re visiting a less selective bunch in April vacation hoping to find a Plan B+ now that Plan A- looks reachy. </p>
<p>Am I concerned? Yeah I have to say that I am a little. </p>
<p>Will this be a big deal in 5-10 years. I doubt it.</p>
<p>The hard ones cover a year’s worth of college work. AP BC Calculus, AP US History, and AP Biology are examples.</p>
<p>The easier ones cover a semester’s worth of college work. AP AB Calculus, AP Psychology, and AP American Government are examples.</p>
<p>Assuming that each of these courses is taught over one year at the high school, there is a dramatic difference in the quantity of material covered in the hard APs vs. the easier ones.</p>
<p>Most of the math and science APs fall into the “hard” group. Perhaps this, rather than the subject matter, explains the preference for them.</p>
<p>I still wouldn’t force a kid to take APs in subjects they don’t like. And, if you want an anecdote, I can report that my daughter, whose only science AP was AP Environmental Science (which is in the “easier” group and is almost a joke compared to the other science APs), got into Cornell Early Decision. However, she was in a full IB program, which may have helped.</p>
<p>State universities’ policies certainly vary by state. The California publics give a +1 boost for up to 8 semesters worth of AP or certified honors courses (effectively up to a 0.3 to 0.4 point GPA boost for a student who took that many or more during 10th and 11th grade). The Texas publics use rank instead of GPA, presumably trusting whatever the high school’s notion of rank is.</p>
<p>Although wouldn’t it look bad to be too obvious in avoiding other subjects? For example, stopping math after algebra 2, or stopping foreign language after level 2.</p>
<p>To the OP- on the GC’s recommendations form for the Common App, it asks if the student took the most rigorous classes. The GC should not choose a less rigorous category if the student was unable to take an AP/honors etc.</p>
<p>I wish our GC would be transparent about what it takes to get the “most rigorous” box checked. I asked her this question and she wishy-washied so bad around it. Due to some language LD, D is not going to be taking foreign language. Her GPA and class rank will be very high.</p>
<p>Am I somewhat concerned? Yes, and especially based on prior experience with this GC.</p>
<p>We toured many T20 qnd smaller LAC schools with S1. The question of regular class with an A vs AP with a grade of B always got asked. Without exception, the adcoms said, “Well, we prefer an A with an AP class.” chuckle, chuckle. I think they do a disservice in this answer. It would be helpful if they would truthfully answer.</p>
<p>Based on reading many cc posts on this issue over the last 7+ years, I’m going to say general parental reaction is that no matter what others espouse, it oftens ends up that the regular class with better GPA results in better college admissions results. </p>
<p>Whether that kid is better prepared is another question…although not in my school since our AP pass rate for the past four years is 0, 0, 1.2% and 0. OMG–how pathetic is that? No one, no one–not parents, teachers, students, nor administrators cares. /hits head on wall/</p>