Question: UVa vs. UMich vs. UCLA

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
21

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>I respect your vigorous efforts to defend your alma mater. I am not UCLA alum, but think UCLA has a slight edge over Michigan as an institution of higher education. Statistically, they are very similar but UCLA slightly edges out Michigan (e.g. USNWR, ARWU and the Times (your favorite publication) rankings on academic programs) </p>

<p>You don’t know how the Times ranking has been inconsistent and seriously flawed? ARWU perennially ranks Berkeley and Stanford as two of the top 5 universities in the world on the basis of their strong academic programs and their position in academic circles. To the contrary, the Times ranking has been fluctuated erratically year after year. Furthermore, the Times openly favors universities in United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Hong Kong and Singapore. The following rankings of several U.S. universities clearly show how the Times ranking has been inconsistent and seriously flawed:</p>

<p>Stanford:
2004: #7
2005: #5
2006: #6
2007: #19
2008: #17
2009: #16</p>

<p>Berkeley:
2004: #2
2005: #6
2006: #8
2007: #22
2008: #36
2009: #39</p>

<p>UCLA:
2004: #26
2005: #37
2006: #31
2007: #41
2008: #30
2009: #32</p>

<p>Michigan:
2004: #31
2005: #36
2007: #29
2008: #18
2009: #19</p>

<p>It is your logic that Michigan is more prestigious than UCLA in Europe because Michigan is ahead of UCLA in a seriously flawed Times ranking, which I think is hilarious. I bet Michigan is more prestigious than Berkeley in Europe because Michigan is again ahead of Berkeley in a seriously flawed Times ranking. As I said, unfortunately, UCLA is significantly more prestigious than Michigan in the Far East Asia. </p>

<p>How can you prove that Michigan has more resources?</p>

<p>According to the USNWR,</p>

<p>Faculty resources rank:
UCLA: #43
Michigan: #74</p>

<p>Financial resources rank:
UCLA: #25
Michigan: #37</p>

<p>If a 3 spot difference in the USNWR ranking is completely negligible as you asserted, professional programs of UCLA and Michigan are on a par.</p>

<p>According to the USNWR,</p>

<p>Business School:
UCLA (Anderson): #14
Michigan (Ross): #13</p>

<p>Medical School:
UCLA (Primary Care): #10
Michigan (Primary Care): #12</p>

<p>UCLA (Research): #11
Michigan (Research): #11</p>

<p>Law School:
UCLA: #15
Michigan: #9</p>

<p>Do you have a data to support your assertion that Michigan has a more geographically diverse alumni population? </p>

<p>Reputation-wise, like I said, UCLA significantly edges out Michigan in Asia. In Europe, I am not sure.</p>

<p>I still believe acceptance rate of 42%, which is higher than UVA (37%) and UNC (34%) is a disgrace to a prestigious and elite university like Michigan.</p>

22

<p>^ Those acceptance rates are from 2008 I believe.</p>

23

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>When I wrote, ”Michigan is the most expensive public school”, I mean, "Michigan is the most expensive public school in terms of tuition and fees”.</p>

<p>In-State Tuition and Fees for 2010/2011:
Cal: $12,388
UCLA: $10,780
Michigan: Lower Division: $11,659, Upper Division: $13,141</p>

<p>OOS Tuition and Fees for 2010/2011
Cal: $35,267
UCLA: $33,659
Michigan: Lower Division: $34,937, Upper Division: $37,389</p>

<p>As you may already know, Cal’s tuition and fees include $1,522 for student health insurance.</p>

24

<p>“As a California resident, I can assure you that it is fallacious to assert that UC is in financial woes. From my observations and experience, sizes of endowment and alumni giving rate have nothing to do with the prestige of a university.”</p>

<p>You are completely living in denial.</p>

25

<p>^^ Seriously, the California higher education crisis has been discussed frequently in the news for months now. Where has the poster been??</p>

26

<p>Hattorihanzo, what happened to room and board? I know students study a lot, but they also need a roof over their heads and food. UCLA and Cal are more expensive than Michigan. Tuition may be equal, but cost of living on and off campus in CA is significantly higher than cost of living in Michigan.</p>

<p>You want to discuss rankings, below some facts, all from the USNWR:</p>

<p>BIOLOGY:
Michigan #15
UCLA #23</p>

<p>CHEMISTRY:
UCLA #12
Michigan #16</p>

<p>COMPUTER SCIENCE:
Michigan #13
UCLA #13</p>

<p>EARTH SCIENCE:
Michigan #5
UCLA #11</p>

<p>ECONOMICS:
Michigan #12
UCLA #14</p>

<p>ENGLISH:
UCLA #10
Michigan #13</p>

<p>HISTORY:
Michigan #7
UCLA #9</p>

<p>MATHEMATICS:
Michigan #9
UCLA #12</p>

<p>PHYSICS:
Michigan #13
UCLA #16</p>

<p>POLITICAL SCIENCE:
Michigan #4
UCLA #11</p>

<p>PSYCHOLOGY
Michigan #3
UCLA #3</p>

<p>SOCIOLOGY
Michigan #4
UCLA #9</p>

<p>BUSINESS :
Michigan #4 UG, #13 GR
UCLA N/A UG, #14 GR</p>

<p>ENGINERING:
Michigan #7 UG, #9 GR
UCLA #19 UG, #14 GR</p>

<p>LAW
Michigan #9
UCLA #15</p>

<p>MEDICINE:
Michigan #11
UCLA #11</p>

<p>I don’t see how UCLA is better than Michigan.</p>

<p>Like I said, stats will not win this debate one way or the other. For some reason, however, on average and in most areas, Michigan is more highly regarded than UCLA.</p>

27

<p>“Reputation-wise, like I said, UCLA significantly edges out Michigan in Asia. In Europe, I am not sure.”</p>

<p>In Asia, UCLA slightly edges out Michigan in some places, Michigan slightly edges out UCLA in others. Overall, in Asia, UCLA and Michigan are roughly even, with a slight advantage maybe going to UCLA. In Europe, Michigan’s reputation is significantly stronger.</p>

<p>As for alumni geographic diversity, it is reasonable to assume that Michigan, whose undergraduate student population is over 35% OOS, will have a more geographically dispersed alumni population than UCLA, whose undergraduate student population is under 10%.</p>

28

<p>“From my observations and experience, sizes of endowment and alumni giving rate have nothing to do with the prestige of a university.” </p>

<p>Really? What universities have the largest endowments (in descending order)?</p>

<p>Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Princeton
MIT
Michigan
Columbia
Penn
Northwestern
Chicago
Notre Dame
Duke
Emory
WUSTL
Cornell
Rice
UVa
Dartmouth</p>

<p>I don’t know, it would seem that there is a pretty strong correlation between endowment and prestige, with Cal and UCLA being two notable exceptions.</p>

29

<p>

I can’t comment on Japan or Korea as I am not familiar with UCLA’s reputation in those countries. I do know that Michigan is well known and well respected among my Japanese and Korean colleagues and business partners.</p>

<p>In China and Hong Kong, Michigan is way more prestigious than UCLA among alumni, academia, businesses and employers. Michigan has a much longer history in China.</p>

<p>If you are talking about UC-Berkeley, that is a different story.</p>

30

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>Tuition of UCLA and Michigan may be equal? Are you kidding me? Did you read the data I posted? Although UCLA hiked tuition by 32% for academic year of 2010-2011, their tuition is still lower than Michigan. UCLA’s room and board is higher than Michigan because cost of living and per capita income of Los Angeles is higher than Ann Harbor, right? ^^. </p>

<p>If UCLA’s 3 spot higher ranking of the USNWR over Michigan is completely negligible as you asserted, your referred professional and graduate school rankings of the USNWR is completely negligible, right? </p>

<p>According to the ARWU that ranks universities on the basis of academic or research performance, including alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, highly cited researchers, papers published in Nature and Science, papers indexed in major citation indices, and the per capita academic performance of an institution, UCLA significantly edges out Michigan.</p>

<p>According to the ARWU - 2009
UCLA: #13
Michigan: #22</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2009.js[/url]”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2009.js&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The Times ranking which is your favorite publication clearly favors UCLA in academic programs as opposed to your ****xxx assertion ^^.</p>

<p>Arts and Humanities:
UCLA: #9
Michigan: #26</p>

<p>Life Sciences:
UCLA: #18
Michigan: #35</p>

<p>Natural Sciences:
UCLA: #16
Michigan: #47</p>

<p>Social Sciences:
UCLA: #14
Michigan: #23</p>

<p>Engineering/Technology:
UCLA: #18
Michigan: #41</p>

<p>[THE</a> - QS World University Rankings 2009 - Arts and Humanities | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/arts-humanities]THE”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/arts-humanities)</p>

<p>[THE</a> - QS World University Rankings 2009 - Life Sciences & Biomedicine | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/life-sciences-bio-medicine]THE”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/life-sciences-bio-medicine)</p>

<p>[THE</a> - QS World University Rankings 2009 - Natural Sciences | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/natural-sciences]THE”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/natural-sciences)</p>

<p>[THE</a> - QS World University Rankings 2009 - Social Sciences | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/social-sciences]THE”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/social-sciences)</p>

<p>[THE</a> - QS World University Rankings 2009 - Engineering/Technology | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/technology]THE”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/subject-rankings/technology)</p>

<p>As I came up with available statistics (e.g. USNWR’ undergraduate ranking, ARWU, academic rankings of the Times), UCLA is by far a better institution of higher education. </p>

<p>Let me remind you again how Michigan’s acceptance rate was pathetic for Fall 2009.</p>

<p>Michigan:
29,965 Applicants
14,970 Admitted
Acceptance Rate: 49.96%</p>

<p>UCLA:
55,708 Applicants
12,179 Admitted
Acceptance Rate: 21.86%</p>

<p>[Office</a> of Undergraduate Admissions: About Michigan](<a href=“http://www.admissions.umich.edu/about/]Office”>Explore & Visit | University of Michigan Office of Undergraduate Admissions)</p>

<p>[Profile</a> of Admitted Freshmen, Fall 2009 - UCLA Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/Prospect/Adm_fr/Frosh_Prof09.htm]Profile”>http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/Prospect/Adm_fr/Frosh_Prof09.htm)</p>

31

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>When it comes to endowment, I bet you know how private schools obnoxiously pressure their alums to give donations to their alma mater.^^</p>

32

<p>GoBlue81,</p>

<p>I bet your are Michigan alum as your ID indicates. I tell you what. In Japan and Korea, UCLA is as prestigious as Berkeley and Ivy League schools. On the contrary to your personal observations, my Korean and Japanese colleagues and business partners believe UCLA is a more prestigious academic institution. ARWU which is a publication of Jiao Tong University of China obviously favors UCLA.</p>

33

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>Michigan’s student population has been greater than UCLA, but OOS and international students know that UCLA by far is more selective than Michigan. Michigan may have more alumni population geographically and globally than UCLA. So what? Student population of Michigan has been 4 times greater than those of Yale and Stanford. So what?</p>

34

<p>Hattorihanzo, I suppose we are each entitled to our opinion. Yours certainly is a valid opinion.</p>

35

<p>

Contrary to what? Like I said, “I can’t comment on Japan or Korea as I am not familiar with UCLA’s reputation in those countries. I do know that Michigan is well known and well respected among my Japanese and Korean colleagues and business partners.”</p>

<p>But you are wrong about China and Hong Kong. I worked for a Fortune 100 company in Asia for almost 15 years, and I had regional responsibilities (including Korea). So I did get around and it’s my job to know.</p>

<p>In China and Hong Kong, Michigan is more prestigious than UCLA among alumni, academia, businesses and employers. Michigan has more than a century of involvement in China, almost as old as Yale’s (i.e., UCLA can’t compare). One of Michigan’s strengths is its strong industry and alumni networks (both undergrad and grad). There are thousands of Michigan alum working in the Greater China areas, including some very prominent people in the political and financial areas. </p>

<p>In the academic area, Michigan has joint institutes and academic collaborations with Peking, Tsinghua, Fudan and Shanghai Jiao Tong University. Michigan hosted two Michigan-China University Leadership Forum, co-sponsored with the Chinese Ministry of Education. The Ross School of Business operates an office in Hong Kong to coordinate its many executive training programs in China and the rest of Asia.</p>

<p>Since you are so confident that UCLA “significantly edges out Michigan” in China and Hong Kong, perhaps you can explain this:</p>

<p>UCLA has an alumni chapter in China. However, the member’s roster shows only 43 active members (<a href=“宣城潦钟水电安装有限公司”>宣城潦钟水电安装有限公司). Why? I had more Michigan Wolverines showing up when I hosted the Michigan-Ohio State game at 4:30 in the morning!</p>

<p>I know UCLA has an alumni club in Hong Kong 'cause we have cross-functions with them occasionally. However, I have never seen a UCLA booth in any of the major college fairs. Most of the top US universities were represented by alumni, including UCB and UVa. Why?</p>

<p>

May be it’s so among high school students. Somehow I doubt that it’s true in the business world.</p>

<p>p.s. Just curious. I presume you are working in Japan as you proclaim to know about the business world. Why then would you need “your colleagues and business partners” to tell you that UCLA is more prestigious in Japan?</p>

36

<p>I think UCLA is no longer an option for me. I am very much convinced by what GoBlue81 and Alexandre have said. UMich it is.</p>

37

<p>Nice! Congratulations on your decision!</p>

38

<p>Uva > UMich !!</p>

39

<p>^ Jamiecago, can you elaborate?</p>

40

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>Don’t get me wrong. I just elaborated on the available data and statistics that UCLA slightly edges out Michigan as an institution of higher education. I never denied the fact that Michigan is a prestigious and elite university. In fact, Michigan and UCLA are morally superior to some of the top private universities, as they do not manipulate the data.</p>