$ question

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>So, I'm a rising sophomore at Penn and have been contemplating possible career paths for my future. There are 2 that I tend to gravitate towards: Teaching and law.</p>

<p>I'll probably major in History, concentrating in American History. If I do so, I may like to go into teaching (secondary/high school). It integrates many things that I'm interested in -- educating others, having creative leeway, school setting, etc.</p>

<p>However, I'd be lying if I said that $ wasn't a factor in my decision of what to pursue. Undoubtedly, it's a factor for many. I recall an episode of Oprah that showed a man who worked many years as a lawyer, and then retired and happily opened a bakery. Perhaps baking is his passion and he contemplated culinary school, but opted to attend law school in the end for financial reasons.</p>

<p>At the same time, I've read elsewhere that if you want to make a lot of money, law school isn't the right choice. I'm sure that's true to an extent... If you want to be rich, why not just work on Wall Street or go into investment banking?</p>

<p>But for me, it's basically between a teacher and lawyer. In regards to the $ aspect, it'd seem as though the lawyer would be a better choice. This chart (<a href="http://www.elsblog.org/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/30/nalp_bimodal.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.elsblog.org/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/30/nalp_bimodal.jpg&lt;/a&gt;) shows that the median starting salary for recent law grads is $62,000. That's quite the sum when I look at average starting salaries for teachers and typically see amounts in the $30,000s, $40,000s if you're lucky.</p>

<p>I'd basically like some insight into the salary aspect of being a lawyer. What is necessary in order to obtain a nice salary? I'm aware that some come out of law school making $125,000. I'm not looking for that -- I'd be content with a starting salary of $60,000, with the possibility of breaking $100K within 10 years or so. (...Is this realistic?)</p>

<p>In essence, is this graph (<a href="http://www.payscale.com/chart/205/Median-Salary-by-Years-Experience---Job-Attorney--Lawyer-United-States_USD_20080602025610.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.payscale.com/chart/205/Median-Salary-by-Years-Experience---Job-Attorney--Lawyer-United-States_USD_20080602025610.jpg&lt;/a&gt;) of lawyer salaries accurate?
In your experiences, does the average lawyer -- considering school name, rank in class, grades, etc -- make about $103,000 after working for 10-19 years as the above graph would suggest? Or do you find this amount to be unusually high/low?</p>

<p>These amounts are more than double those that correspond with a high school teacher (<a href="http://www.payscale.com/chart/102/Median-Salary-by-Years-Experience---Job-High-School-Teacher-United-States_USD_20080605050647.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.payscale.com/chart/102/Median-Salary-by-Years-Experience---Job-High-School-Teacher-United-States_USD_20080605050647.jpg&lt;/a&gt;), so $ is at least somewhat of a factor for me, although ultimately I'll choose which career I think is best in the long run, all things considered.</p>

<p>I appreciate any insight.
Thank you.</p>

2

<p>The problem is if you're making $60K compared to $40 -- okay, that's an extra $20K, but taxes erode a pretty sizeable chunk of that, so we'll call it perhaps $13K. (Consider Federal, Social Security, and State income taxes and I think 33% of that margin is an underestimate if anything.) Now consider how much more debt a young lawyer is likely to be carrying, and that $13K erodes pretty rapidly. </p>

<p>Now consider how many more hours per week and weeks per year our young lawyer works compared to a teacher, and the per-hour, post-debt, post-tax income differential looks rather poor indeed.</p>

3

<p>Well, for one, though, you're comparing the starting salaries -- 60K vs. 40K. As years of experience increases, say to the 10-19 range, the lawyer's monetary edge increases, with about 35-40K more (having roughly factored in taxes).</p>

<p>Also, you're neglecting the cost of graduate school for History. I didn't mention it because I was primarily looking for someone to assess the accuracy of a lawyer's salary... But I would indeed go to grad school, as many teachers do, and this would obviously set me back with a good chunk of debt.</p>

<p>So neglecting the debt issue (since I would be in similar debt situations with both occupations) and neglecting the tax issue (which we factored in), the last point you bring up is the hour/time issue.
This is indeed a good point, and one that will certainly be a factor in my decision -- A teacher generally works fewer hours, less grueling work, summer's off... Overall, less demanding. However, I've worked incredibly hard my entire life (I managed to get into Penn because of it), and so I know I'd work as long or hard as necessary for a job. The reward ($) is obviously an incentive for many to tackle very demanding workloads. Possibly, though, this difference in hours/time/work would contribute to a disparity in job satisfaction, but this is getting off topic.</p>

<p>Rather than comparing/contrasting the two occupations, I'd appreciate any insight into the validity of the average salary claims for a lawyer posted above.
Thank you.</p>

4

<p>I do not think that average salary charts are useful for law (or medicine.) Many factors go into determining long range salary such as field of specialization, government versus private sector, and geographic location. In large NYC law firms the starting salary can be well over $100,000. In order to get one of these jobs you need to go to a top law school or do very well (high class rank, law review) in a lower ranked school. However, few of the associates remain for the long haul.</p>

<p>Most people leave the large firms for corporate jobs or even other fields. In my personal experience most of my friends are no longer in law firms or corporate. THen some top lawyers that I know (high level corporate) have faced "early retirement" in their 50's. THis is quite common, and it is no pleasure to try to find other work at that age (if possible.)</p>

<p>Teachers on the other hand can begin at a lower salary, but longevity is not an issue.</p>

5

<p>I have been in legal recruiting for over 20 years and I couldn't give you an average salary for an attorney. There are, of course, the biglaw starting salaries of $160k - that's the easy one. I know attorneys who are making $40 out of law school. I know some making in the low $60s who are several years out and others making well over $200k with the same amount of experience. It is really impossible to predict. Do you feel that you wouldn't be able to teach without the grad degree in history? If you can, I would recommend getting a teaching job out of college to see if you love it. If you do, then go for the grad degree. If you are not enjoying it, save some money that year and then go to law school.</p>

6

<p>Yea, I don't think you need to a Master's or Ph.D. in History to teach it at the high school level. All you need is a bachelor's and your teaching certificate. Most of the teacher's I had in high school that had master's or Ph.D.'s didn't have it in the subject that they were teaching, but instead in education. And I think the school system may have helped the teacher's pay for these degrees and that's why so many of them had it... also once they got the degrees they got a salary increase.</p>

7

<p>I taught before I went to law school - got my masters right after undergrad. I made about 19k as a teacher - this was over 30 years ago. When I started at a "biglaw" firm, the salary was 32,500k. That was actually the top salary in the city then. I taught in Richmond and practiced in Baltimore. Somehow, I never felt like I had a penny more to spend making over 30k than I did making less than 20k. It doesn't take much of a lifestyle change to eat up 10k. The salaries really took off in the next year or two. We were at 50k within a year or so it seems. That was more money than I thought I could imagine at the time.</p>

8

<p>Thank you guys for some insight.</p>

<p>As far as getting my Master's to teach, I'm not sure if I would go to grad school immediately after undergrad, or try and teach for a few years first. Many teachers where I live work towards their Master's by going to school at night or during the summers for the first few years that they teach. However, I definitely would get my Master's at some point, because without it, my salary would plateau quickly.
For example, this chart (<a href="http://www.whiteplainspublicschools.org/411236122141034/lib/411236122141034/WPPS_Teacher_Pay_Schedule.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.whiteplainspublicschools.org/411236122141034/lib/411236122141034/WPPS_Teacher_Pay_Schedule.pdf&lt;/a&gt;) shows a teacher's pay scale at a school in Westchester County, NY, one of the best paid locations in the country for teachers. As you can see, the higher the degree, the more money. With a Bachelor's only, it's essentially impossible to reach 100K, but with a Master's+ it is feasible (although it will likely take at least ~15 years).</p>

<p>
[quote]
The salaries really took off in the next year or two. We were at 50k within a year or so it seems. That was more money than I thought I could imagine at the time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's what it seems like -- At first, the wage difference might not be that remarkable. But as the years go on, a lawyer's possibility of making big $ is better than a teacher's... It just seems like as a lawyer, there are more variables and opportunities to move up. With a teacher, it's pretty much a small, steady raise each year.</p>

<p>I appreciate the replies thus far, as they seem to indicate that a lawyer's salary is subject to many varying components, and is thus hard to predict.</p>

<p>By the way, I live in New York and will probably live/work here in the future... In case anyone can use this information to direct their replies.</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

9

<p>I should clarify that the salaries taking off at that point was happenstance. The New York, California and DC firms put in huge increases in a couple of years before that so all the firms in other markets were playing catchup to curtail associate raiding. In many firms, there is quite a bit of compression among years so a 3rd year may make less than 5k more than a 2nd year.</p>