<p>I would suggest that, whether or not the high school offers an AP course in a subject, if a student is relatively motivated to work in a subject, to take the AP test anyway. Last year as a senior in HS our D took the regular Psychology course. At the last minute, on a whim, she decided to take the AP test. She got a 5 and placed out of, and got credit for, two semesters of introductary psych at the college she attends. The gamnble turned out to be a good investment. She also took an AP course in Statistics, got a 4 on the exam and the Psychology Dept of the college she attends did not acknowledge it for their stat course.
I compared how the top four schools she applied to treated credit for AP courses, and department-by-department, it was "all over the map".</p>
<p>Glad you mentioned taking the AP exam without the class. My son did that (also on a whim) and was able to receive credit.</p>
<p>My kids did not take most of the tests. Our school did not require it and did not pay. The classes are taught very unevenly. In some classes, everyone gets 5's (Bio, Comp, and to some extent English). In others, like USH, 2's and 3's are common (they make it a two year class, with no review at all.) Our school only offers about 8, and it's impossible to take them all the way we're set up.</p>
<p>S did not take the Calc test because his college will take an A in the class to place out of Calc 1. He did not take Physics because his class was useless. He took two Comp APs, but only tested once because the college only gives credit for one.</p>
<p>Regardless of what credit he got or didn't get, he's not planning on graduating early, so it does not save any money. Basically, he took the classes for the same reason listed above; you can't NOT.</p>
<p>I believe the quality of our HS's AP classes are quite high, equivilent enough to college classes that they limit our students to 3 AP's both junior and senior year. In fact most students find their first college math courses easier than their AP calc class.</p>
<p>The biggest advantage in our son's case is that he will be able to get his dual major BS and MS degrees in 9 semesters as it stands now. The potential savings in room/board alone dwarfs the cost of his AP exams.</p>
<p>I agree with above who state that students take AP's because they have to demonstrate they are taking the most ambitious program available to them, but I honestly think it limits creativity especially in the humanities and social sciences. I am paying a lot of money at a private school for my son to take what is essentially a canned curriculum in four courses this year.</p>
<p>My D has taken 4 AP classes (1 soph, 3 jr) and is taking 6 more her senior year (one of them independent study). They have been difficult, time consuming, and very worthwhile. She's taking them because she feels that they are more "fun" than the standard classes in these subjects. Most schools to which she is applying do not award AP credit, but do provide placement into higher level classes...an opportunity to skip the "boring" introductory classes and get into the "fun stuff" early in her college career.</p>
<p>I am not sure what school you folks are talking about,but at my daughter's school here in Maryland, the honors are MUCH harder than regular classes. AP are probably harder than our honors. Certainly, the APs are more work.</p>
<p>My daugher took both AP classes and now takes actual college courses and finds the actual college couses much better and, in some ways, easier than our AP courses. At least with college courses, the exams are based on the lectures and/or the test. This is not necessarily true of AP exams.</p>
<p>AP courses are taught in a very theoretical manner. They don't generally go over a lot of AP exams. They assume that the student does that. The books are very theoretical. For example, my son, who took AP stat, had very few solved examples in his book; however, he did have lots of theory.</p>
<p>Interestingly, when we called various colleges about getting credit for the college courses and AP courses, we were told that all the college course credit will transfer as long as she gets a "C" or above. However, AP course credit will vary based on the exam score. Usually, they want at least a "4" and in some cases a "5."</p>
<p>At our kids' school, transcripts are at no additional charge (but student supplies envelopes & stamps & gives sufficient lead time). If your child takes AP courses, the school requires you to take the AP exam & pay the full $82.
The only AP exam they encourage students to take without having taken an AP course is English Comp for juniors. Most kids at the school do very well on the AP exams because the courses are taught well and comprehensive. The students who return to speak to rising juniors & seniors & their parents say that they are well-prepared when they start college wherever they choose, including HYP or most other schools.</p>
<p>While I agree that pushing our kids is a bad thing, I see nothing wrong with allowing them to take courses that interest them that they enjoy. It allows them to still be on a HS campus with their friends while taking courses which challenge & interest them. This allows them to stay in HS, where some of their friends in schools which don't offer these types of courses have to decide whether to take their courses at community colleges or elsewhere to get the stimulation & challenge they crave. The HS also offers very small classes (max is 20 students & my son has one class with only 4 students & one with 10). They are unlikely to receive such small classes to cover this level of material in college (would largely be done in huge lectures, perhaps with smaller discussion sessions). Also, these HS kids are actually often taught by PhDs and/or at least instructors with a passion for the subject rather than teaching assistants who are often mostly interested in getting their degree & research & may regard teaching as a means to an end (their grad funding).</p>
<p>If son was not interested, we would discourage him from taking these courses, but we've supported his choice to take what he is interested in & enjoys.</p>
<p>It is impossible to really ascertain the value of APs. There is a world of difference among high schools, and there is world of difference among the colleges that accept the AP for credit or placement. This means that anedoctal evidence is ... simply anedoctal. </p>
<p>My personal take on this issue is that we should start imposing DRASTIC rules on all this non-sense. High schools should teach high school subjects and college should teach college classes. We are allowing a total hybrid system to develop without considering how much it hurts the students. Enormous pressure is placed on high schools to become more "competitive", yet what is mostly missing are the BASES of instruction. How many students struggle in college Calculus because their Algebra I and II were deficient? As a result a great number of college classes are more or less remedial classes ... and in important subjects such as English and Math. </p>
<p>All of these AP classes also contribute to rob students of the total college experience. College should graduate students in four years -not in two or six. Many colleges seem unable to graduate their students in four years, yet the buzzword of the day is double or triple majors. Absolute non-sense, if you ask me! </p>
<p>The reality is every parent should make noise about stopping the evolution of this rat race. Where will it stop? High school students are EXPECTED (not sure by whom) to have a dozen AP. The fact that Stanford's average student had fewer than five APs is lost on most parents and educators. But there is a different story: to get "in" the right classes in high school, students need to earn advanced status in middle school. Where will it go ... kindergarten Advanced Placement classes to be taken at 3? A series of ESAP? Middle School APs? Aren't we just kidding ourselves to believe that all our classes should be advanced a la IB program? </p>
<p>Since the high schools have shown to be unable to control this situation, it is up to the College to take the appropriate steps and return a modicum of logic to the AP programs. There is an easy solution: ask the student to take VERIFICATION exams for a VERY SMALL number of AP during the first semester. Pass the test and you get credit. Fail and you get nothing! The maximum credits should 1 to 4 classes, at the most. AP classes and tests should be for the TRULY advanced. </p>
<p>For what is worth, I also accumulated a substantial number of credits before college. At our local flagship school, I could have earned Junior status before entering my freshman fall semester. Deciding NOT to use any of my credits has been one of the best decisions I ever made. High school classes, regardless of their difficulty, are not great substitutes for college classes. Not to mention that college courses are not great substitutes for high school classes!</p>
<p>Xiggi notes,"High schools should teach high school subjects and college should teach college classes."</p>
<p>Response: Don't agree here Xiggi. If kids want to take more challanging courses,let them. In fact, there were numerous articles in the Chronicle of Higher Education about colleges complaining that kids aren't well enough prepared for college with your typical high school curriculum.Moreover, studies have supposedly shown ( not sure by whom) that kids that take AP courses are more likely to succeed in college.</p>
<p>As far as your point of imposing drastic rules in order to have some uniformity on the college's treatment of AP credits, I completely agree. However, it isn't going to happen. Each college has the right to form whatever rules they want. I don't see how anyone can make a college submit to certain rules about AP courses.</p>
<p>Xiggi also notes, "All of these AP classes also contribute to rob students of the total college experience. College should graduate students in four years -not in two or six. Many colleges seem unable to graduate their students in four years, yet the buzzword of the day is double or triple majors. Absolute non-sense, if you ask me! "</p>
<p>Response: hmm, where to begin. I am not sure that simply taking AP courses rob kids of any college experience. They can simply take more courses that they want to take and less of what they "have to take." In fact, used correctly, having AP credits can enhance the college experience this way by allowing more flexibility in courses and even more majors.</p>
<p>Your second point about graduating kids in more than 4 years is not understandable. Maybe I missed the point. Why would taking AP courses require more years to graduate college? In fact, it should reduce the time it takes to graduate. Besides, who says that 4 years is the ideal standard for college? Maybe graduating in 5 years with a double major is better for that person's situation. Maybe it will provide both better job prospects and better training for various fields.Who is to say? For example, my daughter wants to have a double major in both graphic design and new media design. If I had to do it again, I would double major in both accounting and technical writing. Maybe I would also build in some computer science. Personally, I think that encouraging double majors is a very good idea. What I dislike intensely are those schools that have lots of core requirements, especially with choices that must be picked like a chinese menu: some from group A, B, C, D etc. If I am paying 30K per year for tuition, I darn well want to choose my own destiny and structure my own education. The courses that I would mandate are english and writing courses, and I would allow exemptions based on APs and SATs.</p>
<p>If your point is that too many high schools shove the AP courses down the throats of unsuspectiing students, I might agree with this assessment.</p>
<p>However, for me, the bottom line Xiggi is that I see nothing wrong with giving kids the option to have additional rigor in their high school career, especially if it fosters greater success in college.</p>
<p>By the way Xiggi, I am not picking on you. You have some of the best, most thoughtful posts on CC. They are most appreciated.</p>
<p>I didn't take any AP courses in HS (don't even remember if we HAD any). I did test & place out of psychology & 3 semesters of Spanish. Tried to place out of Writing composition, but didn't. Fortunately, I took a course where the instructor was a rare gem who helped each student write better in their own style rather than trying to get each student to write more like him. He became on of my mentors (& unknown to me, one of my biggest fans, eventually nominating me for an award which I won to my great surprise).</p>
<p>It is unfortunate that many kids do arrive on college campuses ill-prepared for college level work & more time & resources are necessarily devoted to "remedial" work that should have been done before they arrived on campus.</p>
<p>D#1 graduated with 10 APs; so will #2. They took the classes because this was the natural progression for them and because it was the only way for them to remain competitive in the context of their high schools for college admissions. </p>
<p>D#1 at Yale says neither the AP classes - or high school - prepared her for college. However, had she attended our state u, she probably would have graduated 1-2 semesters early.</p>
<p>Taxguy, having been on this board for a long time, I know that people who disagree do not pick on one another. I also believe that you learn more from reading posts from people you disagree with. I also know that stating blunt opinions is a sure way to ruffle someone's feathers. Many times, we discuss very generic situations, but there are ALWAYS exceptions that go against the norm. </p>
<p>I wish I had more time to explain my positions with more clarity. I believe that your focus was at the college level. I looked more at what is happening at the high school, and the possible negative impacts of what I call a rat race. </p>
<p>Please realize that I am not advocating for high schools to drop advanced classes. We have read sufficient examples of kids graduating early because they exhausted their HS programs. My comment about high schools teaching colleges classes is fueled by my belief that schools only PRETEND to teach college classes. For instance, I have taken two English Composition classes as AP classes, two identical classes at our local college, and finally the corresponding class in college. In my eyes, the level was drastically different and if I did not retake the class in college, I would not KNOW what I could have missed. In addition to addressing the "fast-track graduation", this is what I meant by robbing one's experience. I noticed that you would make sure to include a writing class in your OWN core curriculum. Well, you can guess which class students try to bypass the most via exams or credits? </p>
<p>I'd like to discuss the value of a true core curriculum, but it would go well beyond the scope of this discussion. In the end, it is an individual choice. I have learned to appreciate the value of core classes, but I admit that two years ago, I would have tried to bypass it as well. I've discovered that I like classes I never tought I would, and also liked my supposed favorite classes a lot less. I guess that this is one case where elders knew more about what is better for me than I! :)</p>
<p>Xiggi: that would indeed be objectionable.</p>
<p>But consider this reason for loading up on AP courses. There are some high schools -- at least some public ones -- where the teaching in the regular or honor courses are uneven, to put it nicely, and downright atrocious, to be blunt. Students there are unmotivated and spend class time throwing paper airplanes (I exaggerate, but not too much). In such cases, students take AP courses simply to get a decent HIGH SCHOOL course. I know this is pathetic, but it happens.</p>
<p>By the way, I second taxguy that you have some of the most thoughful posts on CC.</p>
<p>In our school the reason the APs are so hot, and the community wants them is bcs parents are being told that this is saving them so much money on tuition. The administration tells parents at meetings that many students save an entire semester of college bcs of APs. Those that really do are few in number.</p>
<p>Well, to take an AP class and then not spend the $ on the test is absurd, especially if credit/placement is provided for the test at the person's college. I would rather spend $80 on a 3 hour test than upwards of $2000 at a private college for the same credit in addition to having to do the work again.</p>
<p>my older daughters school( college) doesn't allow for much placing out of classes no matter what your test score.
Albeit younger daughter is more likely to attend a college which does allow for placing out- but despite the recommendation of her freshman history teacher- & despite that she managed to get the top AP euro history teacher in her school for 10th gd, we have decided that it is too much. In middle school she was in special ed, now she didn't get accomodations, and she managed to do well in 9th grade despite that- but I really don't want her to be compteting with students who have been in the districts gifted program since 1st grade- before shes ready.
She is taking a strong load of other classes, and 10th gr history even without AP is pretty reading and writing intensive.
I think 11th gd will be plenty early for AP
I do notice that for 10th gd history that by far the two best teachers in the dept are teaching AP that period, but the other instructors she has had, haven't been exactly chopped liver :)</p>