I think this may have more to do with the popularity of the engineering majors than their difficulty. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like many people (not necessarily in this thread) think it is easier to land the first technical job with a degree in engineering than with one in Physics or Math. When I graduated, all of these degrees were equally sought after by employers, and in fact when I first went to work at Hughes Aricraft way back in the 70s all of us were hired as “Member of Technical” staff regardless of degree.</p>
<p>IP…agreed with Bovertine…there are more students applying for entry directly to engineering. I know that at my daughter’s college, gaining entry directly to engineering was more competitive simply because of the %age of applicants relative to the number of possible admits. </p>
<p>And to the OP…you do want a school that is ABET accredited.</p>
<p>“Some colleges/universities offer summer engineering programs/camps for HS students” - For families with rising juniors, check out the Catapult Camp at Rose Hulman in Terre Haute IN. I’ve heard it is excellent.</p>
<p>Ditto the comments about it being better to start in engineering and switch out of it if desired than trying to get into engineering in sophomore year. Much easier to start out in the engineering program.</p>
<p>Comment on the CC class idea: good idea to try things out, but be aware that it won’t be like a university engineering program. Taking a single class won’t give him the continuity or comraderie that will be found among the freshman engineering class.</p>
<p>Another idea for high school students is to try out engineering apprenticeship programs that might be offered through local chapters of professional engineering organizations, such as NSPE.</p>
<p>@Classic: care to name some other “engineering-lite” schools besides Tufts?</p>
<p>OP asked how a high school student should know if they want engineering. One way is the Project Lead the Way program. This is a 4 year track of college level engineering classes (somewhat like AP classes) given in high school, sponsored by an engineering college. The high school sends a teacher to the affiliated college to learn the curriculum, then teaches that class at the high school. Our high school’s program is affiliated with RIT. Other affiliated schools include Penn State, Perdue, Cal Poly, and dozens more. The kids taking the classes sit for an exam at the end, like an AP exam. Passing scores receive transcripted credit from the affiliated university, transferable to any college subject to the other schools’ particular rules for transfer credits. The credit is nice, but the main goal of the program is to develop interest in engineering. PLTW kids know well before college whether engineering is right for them. Our rising senior never heard of engineering before high school, but after three years of PLTW, not only does he know for sure that he wants engineering, but he has already ruled out a few types that he doesn’t like.</p>
I don’t get that sense from reading this thread at all. I have degrees in all 3 areas, and engineering was most definitely not “easy”. Neither were the others, and I always hate it when people want to say their field is the “hardest”. What the student finds difficult or easy depends on the individual.</p>
<p>OP-
Both my s’s started out in different majors and changed to engineering. Older s started in physics (he preferred applied to theoretical), but found it too dry (got tired of doing problem sets, etc) and switched to Mechanical Engineeing. It wasnt “easier”, it was far more interesting. Younger s started out as a chemistry/history double major and switched to a Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering/Psychology double major. He did all the premed courses as well (and as a science major didn’t take any of the “light” premed sciences), but decided that was not what he planned to pursue at this time. His schedules have been heavy and because of the course sequence he was sometimes ahead of himself (ie taking thermo II before thermo I, taking physics I and II simultaneously, etc) but he has been able to pull it off. Its not easy, but its doable (and AP credit helped too). Agree that engineering is definitely not easy (though remember there are lots of different engineering majors), and no more or less easy than physics or math.</p>
<p>Engineering. Math, and Physics majors are all hard. There will be easier moments in classes the “click” better, but all demanding. Engineers tend to be more “problem solvers”, less theoretical… but still lots of theory and intense math in all.</p>
<p>I like Physics/Mechanics in high school (as many students do). I didn’t like Electricity/Magnetism much. I would not have enjoyed Physics major, with deals a lot with particles etc. My Mech Eng majors had some classes that I enjoyed less than others, but there was a good variety (almost all techie).</p>
<p>“Do public universities allow you to plan on taking 5 years to effectively do a 3/2 engineering program without having to save all of the engineering program to the end?” </p>
<p>Classic Rocker Dad - I don’t think the 3/2 programs save all the engineering classes to the end (there would be a lot of basic calc and science and related courses the first 3 year), but I agree it is a tough concept for a student to transfer after 3 years .</p>
<p>Per your 5 year idea, many engineering schools (especially those requiring 140+ credits for a BS) have students taking 4.5 or 5 years without an extra major. </p>
<p>Still your idea has some merit, especially if there was an Engineering major along with an interesting minor. The trick would be getting all the course sequencing right. Luckily these days you can find a lot of that info on the web and play “what if” games. AP/IB credits can help students get a head start, if the college accepts them.</p>
<p>Colorado mom, 3/2 engineering programs would offer the math, science and maybe programming classes in the first 3 years, but they don’t HAVE the engineering classes to offer. That’s WHY they have to do it at the end at a school that offers engineering.</p>
<p>Ordinarily, I don’t see any reason to do an engineering degree in more than 4 years unless you do coop, but I think at many schools, students can’t get into the classes they need, or don’t pass them the first time, hence the longer graduation time. </p>
<p>What I’m thinking of is more like combining an interesting math or science major with a practical engineering major where there is some significant overlap of the basic math, chemistry and physics courses. That’s probably what someone doing the 3/2 program at a LAC would entail. The only difference is that one can more evenly spread out the engineering classes to see if it’s something they want to do anyway. At any time, they can bail and still be on track for the science degree. It kind of solves the problem of having to choose your career as a HS kid, or having your educational freedom limited by the rigid engineering curriculum.</p>
<p>It’s like 3/2 engineering without changing schools.</p>
<p>To CRD’s post #28 I would add Stanford as a school where there’s no trouble switching between science and engineering majors. It seemed to us when we visited Princeton that it wouldn’t be an issue there either but because the school didn’t particularly appeal to my d we didn’t investigate further.</p>
<p>I would stay away from LAC’s with 3-2 programs and “engineering-lite” programs. There are enough schools that are strong in both science and engineering and offer low barriers to switching majors that he can make up an excellent list of just those schools. He shouldn’t have to make up his mind now or face hurdles later.</p>
<p>Just to add to the discussion of what major is more difficult, physics/math or engineering: I think it depends on the individual’s talents and interests. My d in general got higher grades in her EE classes than her physics classes but found the physics classes more interesting. However, there’s no question that it was significantly more difficult to complete the EE major than the physics major, not because of the difficulty of the individual classes but because of the sheer number of requirements.</p>
<p>The bar to get into an engineering program is higher than some other programs because of simple supply and demand. The demand side was discussed earlier as there are a lot of students wanting an engineering program. The supply side is just as much a reason. Engineering programs are expensive programs for the schools to offer when compared to something like art or history programs. Labs are not cheap to build and maintain. In these days of tight budgets, some engineering programs are even reducing the number of admitted students to make the money work (Cal Poly SLO comes to mind).</p>
<p>"…It’s like 3/2 engineering without changing schools. " - </p>
<p>I do like that idea. We didn’t really find anything like that. I remember thinking the same ways for a while for my IB son, but he settled into liking Engineering schools so stopped looking. What makes that idea tough is the required course sequences. Classic - you could help a lot of families by posting if you find a good answer.</p>
<p>Perhaps a school with more flexibility or Interdisciplinary Engineering option could work. When I was a Civil Engineer student, there were no “free electives” (but some “professional electives” and techie course choices like higher math elective . I switched to Mech Eng, and there were 2 free electives. That does not leave a lot of room for other, and getting “off track” on sequences can get awkward. </p>
<p>I added a tech communications concentration (5 extra courses) and graduated in 4 years, but to do so I had to used AP credits and summer credits from local college.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I really find this to be a somewhat ridiculous blanket statement. Yes, engineering is a fairly rigid/pre-professional major, but the notion that it leaves far less free time than a physics/math major and does not allow one to become “a highly educated individual” is ridiculous.</p>
<p>As an engineering major at CMU, which I consider to be a highly pre-professionally focused school, I only take maximum half my courses in engineering, math, or science each semester. Caveat - I came in with some helpful AP credit, which helped, but not a ton of AP credit by any means. I have chosen to devote a significant amount of my coursework to Chinese language, and will be earning a minor, but even so, I have plenty of room to take other classes, which I certainly plan to do - I have interests in taking a number of linguistics classes, maybe an art class, and so on.</p>
<p>I do not find an engineering major to be all that restrictive, personally, and I think that it is possible to fit in a number of classes in different areas if one is determined to do so. I could easily have another major in a humanities area, if I so desired. The way CMU engineering is structured, senior year essentially only requires 1 or 2 engineering classes each semester, leaving huge amounts of space for electives. </p>
<p>I’m not trying to deny that engineering is a pre-professional degree - that’s certainly true, and I definitely agree physics/math aren’t the same in that respect at all. But the idea that engineering takes up all one’s time and that physics and math don’t is, IMO, somewhat preposterous.</p>
<p>ColoradoMom,
Thanks to the link on the other thread, “Math Lovers”. I think my son might want to take a look at that. Perhaps he needs to understand all the different types of engineering to get a better idea of which one might be appealing (if any). </p>
<p>Sounds kind of silly but I think one of the things that sparked his interest was remembering his involvement in FSEA way back when he was in 2nd-4th grade. Future Scientists and Engineers was done at a homeschool co-op and we brought different professionals in to help the students design, build and test different models. My son was probably the youngest but he really enjoyed it. My dad, a retired systems engineer, helped out a few times. I think building this optical microscope has stirred my son’s memories.</p>
<p>Bovertine, you may be right about the CC. I just don’t know. My son’s not really been challenged in any of the classes there and he received the highest grades in his Physics 400 class (Classical Electromagnetism) at the local state univ. both semesters last year as a junior. UCSD would be a great place for him to take a class but it’s just not practical-it’s too far and too expensive. The state univ. is two trolley stops away and he’s been able to audit for free. His physics prof has been very kind but I’m not sure if he could do the same for an engineering class, though maybe the prof might have some pull?? He wanted my son to take something called “Disc. Dyn Systems and Chaos”, math 538, this fall-not sure my son has the time, though. I don’t know what it is but it says it has applications in math, physics, engineering and chemistry. </p>
<p>My son just seems to “get” physics but honestly, though he’s doing graduate level research in physics with his prof and one other grad student, I think he was leaning towards majoring in math. He’s always loved it. He’s doing something called “Dynamical Systems” with his math tutor. Is that at all related to engineering? is that the same thing at that Math 538 mentioned above?</p>
<p>Because we homeschool, we’ve sort of piecemealed his education. He’s been able to go deep in physics and math but I haven’t a clue how schools will view his unconventional education. He does like the idea of a liberal arts education so I’m not sure an engineering school would be the right thing for him. I don’t know. He loves writing, wants to continue his study of Arabic, and wants to dabble in philosophy. (And is usually playing Words with Friends, a Scrabble type game, with about 9 different friends at once on his phone) </p>
<p>It seems maybe the first thing he should do is to explore the different areas of engineering. I like the idea of shadowing an engineering but he should probably have some idea of what type. Sounds kind of lame but a good book on the different types of engineers might be the first step.</p>
<p>Most public universities have only a small percentage of out of state students. Also, they may only charge “break even” tuition for out of state students, so keeping them around longer may only be neutral, and if keeping them around longer reduces the number of new out of state students they will admit due to capacity limitations, then no additional profit can come from them staying longer even if they are profitable.</p>
<p>Engineering is not (necessarily) a tougher major in terms of course work and material learned, compared to math or physics (although math courses may take less time due to fewer or no labs compared to physics and engineering courses).</p>
<p>However, engineering is usually harder to get admitted to at schools where it makes a difference, since it is more popular.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo - your S should take a look at Medical Physics as well. Interdisciplinary is where it’s at now, and this is definitely a field of the future.</p>