<p>^Fair enough. It’s certainly not a commitment like the other schools you mention.</p>
<p>I can only speak for CMU, but here, getting out of CIT (the engineering college) is easy. Getting in is another story. I know a few students who have switched out, and it was no problem (caveat - I’m talking about switching to things like science/math/humanities, etc. Here, switching to arts or CS would be really hard). Meanwhile, I had several classes with physics majors vying to switch into my major (Mechanical Engineering), and they weren’t having an easy time. Again, such a situation really makes the case for either choosing a school that doesn’t require such an early commitment, as camathmom’s D, or at least starting in engineering.</p>
<p>Rransfer options/flexibility can vary. I don’t remember it being an issue at Clarkson. But both of my kids were interested in engineering, so I’ve earned about a lot of other programs in recent years. </p>
<p>When we were looking at CU Boulder, there was one engineering programs (I think Mech Eng) that was difficult to transfer into. They had a limited number of slots, and there was not much attrition. So at CU it made sense for “undecided” engineering candidates to apply as MechE.</p>
<p>This actually gives the student a lot of freedom in exploring math, physics, and engineering. For engineering, all of the usual math and physics requirements are completed, so the student can explore the various introductory engineering offerings (normally taken sophomore year) as well as more advanced math and/or physics. The student can then select a major appropriately.</p>
<p>If applying to a school where freshman admissions is dependent on designating a division or major, a student who is admitted to a more selective division or major (usually an engineering major) usually can switch to the less selective division or major (for example, at Berkeley, switching to math or physics is easy, but switching into engineering requires a good GPA). However, applying to the more selective division or major increases the risk of not being admitted at all.</p>
<p>One other thing to note is that a student this advanced should consider schools with strong graduate level programs in the subjects. An undergraduate-only school’s offerings can be easily exhausted by an advanced student.</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd is high on my son’s list. Even though it doesn’t have a grad school, my understanding is that there will still be plenty of u/g courses for my son to take from a school like Mudd (such as quantum and nuclear physics and lots of math such as combinatorics, number theory, abstract algebra, etc) should he get in and should we be able to afford it. Because my son has been an audit student in his upper division physics work and he’s worked with an online tutor for his upper division math work, schools may not allow him to place into higher level classes because he won’t have “official” transcripts for that work, only about 60 or so units of CC lower division work. </p>
<p>When we visited Princeton, he did sit in on the same physics course as the one he took. At his state uni. the course is a senior level; at Princeton, it’s a junior level. However, at Princeton, it seems they use more than just the Griffith’s textbook so they might go deeper, though the prof. seemed to concur the classes were similar. Also, my son took all the AP exams by his freshman year but only scored a 4 on the E&M (5s on the B and CM) at the time so, though he’s had quite a bit more physics, schools might be unwilling to give him proper placement. We did the best we could in order to keep him home until he was 18 and I guess he needs to be willing to accept whatever schools decide as far as placement.</p>
<p>Penn is also really high on my son’s list but this sounds like a school that one needs to know ahead of time if one wants to be an engineering major. My son mentioned mechanical engineering which makes sense given that he feels that he knows mechanics very well. However, it does sound like he could still study engineering in grad school with a degree in math or physics in u/g so, as ucbalumnus suggested, perhaps my son can take some engineering classes as an u/g while earning a degree in something else. I guess my question would be, at a place like Penn, is it even possible for someone outside the major to take engineering classes? That would be ideal if my son could dabble. </p>
<p>There seems to be so much to find out. My son has been doing the best he can by contacting schools with other questions. If I can get as much info as I can on engineering, that would help him, so I appreciate all the feedback very much.</p>
<p>In general, yes, subject to space availability (students majoring in the subject get first priority in course registration for that subject) and knowledge of prerequisite material (which he should certainly have for introductory engineering courses coming from already having had the first two years of math and physics).</p>
<p>Typical introductory engineering courses:</p>
<p>Engineering Design
Materials (MSE)
Statics / Solid Mechanics (CE, ME)
Signals and Systems (EE)
Electronics (EE, CS)
Thermodynamics (ME)
Seminars about what engineers do in the profession</p>
<p>Note that some engineering courses are similar to some physics courses (i.e. no reason to take both versions), such as junior level mechanics, electricity and magnetism, and thermodynamics courses, though one would expect the physics versions to emphasize theory more, while the engineering versions emphasize application to design problems more.</p>
<p>Some schools offer an Engineering Physics and/or Engineering Math major which may be suitable for someone with a heavy interest in physics and/or math, but wants some course work in engineering.</p>
<p>Forgive me for sneaking in a question that doesn’t directly pertain to the OPs concerns, but it’s wonderful to have all you engineering folks in one place. I have had some burning questions about how my S is approaching his ultimate goal and just want to ask you all if taking this long (and expensive route) will get him where he’s decided he wants to go.</p>
<p>He’s a very balanced student, who does as well in the humanities classes as he does in math and science, and likes them all. Going into college he had absolutely no idea what he wanted to study. We all agreed that an LAC would give him a broad education and loads of flexibility, then he’d probably have to go to graduate school for professional training.</p>
<p>His freshman year he discovered geology and loves it. He’s decided to get an interdisciplinary degree in geology/physics with the intension of going to grad school for a masters in environmental engineering, and he’s very interested in hydrology. To do that he’ll have to take at least one extra semester (maybe 2) of engineering classes in grad school to catch up with the students who got undergrad degrees in engineering.</p>
<p>So we’re looking at 7 years to end up in environmental engineering. He will have a very broad education as well as a wonderful undergrad experience. My question is what does having the masters degree give him that having an undergrad engineering degree doesn’t? Anything?</p>
<p>^Generally, a master’s in engineering will give him more job opportunities and a higher starting salary. The CMU data for recent grads shows a substantial difference between salaries for bachelor/master degrees, at least for engineering. In this perticular case, the engineering degree may give him technical skills he didn’t get from his LAC education.</p>
<p>If you’re looking for the catch, here it is:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with trying to go to grad school for engineering without an undergrad engineering degree, but it’s not as easy as some make it out to be. There will be catch-up work. And your son is pretty lucky with just 1 or 2 extra semesters of catch-up, compared to some! Physics/geology –> Environmental Engineering is likely one of the easier transitions.</p>
<p>A broad LAC education can be a wonderful thing, but if the ultimate goal is engineering, is the extra cost (no small sum!) really justifiable? Just something to ponder; I don’t know what the answer is!</p>
<p>My S2 starts school in one month and is still up in the air over Econ, Physics or Elec Eng. His first semester is scheduled to accommodate all three options. He will be taking a writing intensive physics for science and engineering and the same for Calc 1, but these will also fulfill the liberal ed requirements for a BS in Econ. However, he has to make a decision by second semester to stay on the Elec Eng 4 year pathway. </p>
<p>S1’s friend attended a local LAC and they require all 1st year engineering students to take some sort of intro to eng. course. Apparently this helps to weed out kids early on - some because it wasn’t what they envisioned and others who learn they don’t care for the rigor of program.</p>
<p>Sbjdorlo, based on everything you’ve said about your kid I would recommend that he take a long look at both MIT and Stanford, as it sounds like he would fit in well at either. Both schools are known for accepting quirky-bright kids with unconventional backgrounds and providing a welcoming and supportive social environment for those kids. Both offer educational opportunities outside of science and math and have non-science distribution requirements. MIT offers classes in philosophy, writing, etc. and has a cross-registration program with Harvard (among others), where he could continue to take Arabic. At both schools it’s not uncommon for students to come in with college-level classes, and both offer undergraduates lots of opportunities to get involved in research. If he likes Harvey Mudd, he would probably like the laid-back California vibe of Stanford.</p>
<p>I have no personal experience with Rice, but I think it’s also worth looking at.</p>
<p>That being said, it’s easy to identify the reaches. What about matches and safeties? Especially financial safeties?</p>
<p>^No problem - I think just by virtue of having an advanced degree, he’ll have better chances at getting the types of jobs he desires. Caveat - I took a look at the salary data for CMU’s Dept of Civil/Environmental Engineering, and the difference between a BS and MS in terms of salary isn’t as high as some other disciplines, but a) is still there and b) we’re talking about a fairly small sample size.</p>
<p>Couldn’t he delay the decision until third or fourth semester? The typical freshman / sophomore EE curriculum should include the same math and physics courses needed for the physics major (though there may be additional courses in computer science, electronics, and/or signals and systems as well), and economics courses can work toward both the economics major and any social studies breadth requirements for the EE and physics majors.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus - It would be really tough ( to me) to hold out for 2nd semester as he would have Macro econ, Calc 2, Phys 2, Chem and Intro to computing systems. But it could be done.</p>
<p>I’m a late arriver to the thread and may have missed this but I think its important to mention the role of scholarships. DS was an engineering applicant (to Vandy among others) and had to chose between Vandy and a big state school. Chose the state school. Why? much of vandy’s aid that made it affordable was an engineering sponsored scholarship. He and parents weren’t sure that he would remain an engineer. At that time he could switch out of engineering to A&S after 1 year, BUT he would lose the engineering scholarship. It was too big a risk so he went to the state school and loved it. I’m sure he would have loved Vandy and he did stay as an engineer, but it was just too big a risk. Is this a universal problem? Don’t know, but engineering colleges often raise a lot of money and have lots to give.</p>
<p>Sometimes, a bit of schedule juggling can be done to defer the decision. For example, for economics, is it critical to take the economics course then, or can it be deferred a semester? For EE, is it critical to take the chemistry course then, or can it be deferred a semester?</p>
<p>For example, if chemistry is not a prerequisite for a third semester course, and the third semester suggested schedule for EE includes a social studies breadth elective, then the student could take economics instead of chemistry second semester and taking chemistry third semester instead of the social studies breadth elective if he decides to stay in EE (effectively switching places for the two courses). This would allow deferring the major decision until third semester.</p>
<p>EE versus physics major decision should be deferrable until third semester or later because the EE curriculum until then includes the same math and physics courses that a physics major needs.</p>
<p>It’s been pretty hard to find safeties that satisfy what my son is looking for in a school. (Smaller that a state univ, kids who love learning, symphony and very strong music program, sports, deep in math/physics, not too partyish, not too hot/humid). UTD is his only real safety on the list right now. My son’s nationally ranked for his age in chess, though he’s taken a break from it for the past 5 months but will jump back in next week. So, UTD has both academic (NMS) and chess scholarships and it seems to have a deep enough math and physics offering. Other schools possibly would be U of Rochester (if he wanted optics), Baylor, and UCSD (not really a safety but it’s the commuter school).</p>
<p>If my son gets rejected everywhere, he would probably just finish up his few courses left (I think he’d have a few humanities left but he’ll be taking AP Lit exam and US History at the CC and already has foreign lang. so I’m not sure what he’d have left before he could transfer) to transfer into UCSD. He’s got a 4.0 average at the CC so I would assume the agreement our local CC has with UCSD would allow him to do that. He’s not fond of UCSD as he’s on the campus often for math circle. It’s lovely but it’s too big for him. However, I think if he majored in math, the math department would be a decent fit for him. They seem friendlier than the physics department.</p>
<p>MSmom&dad - Good warning. We didn’t have any engineering-specific scholarships that I recall, but DS had a lot of techie schools. I think one of the local kids had that situation going to SC.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo - Safety schools and match schools can be tough. It helps narrow things down once you know whether you are chasing need-based Financial Aid or merit scholarships. Most schools don’t allow you to combine benefits. </p>
<p>Example - At Case (Cleveland). a few top students with very high stats and interesting ECs get generous merit aid - up to $27,500/year. For us the remaining costs (about $8K + room/board + misc…so under $25K ) was a decent deal - about same as in-state schools. For families with EFC well below $35K, Case may be less affordable tham schools with generous FA because they are (per rumor on CC) not generous with FA.</p>
<p>High school do not prepare student well for carrer choices. People tend to say if your are interested in math and science, you should go into engineering. Yet many really now what an engineer do. My son’s high school offer an introduction to engineering as a elective. He may check if one is offered in his chool. Attending an introduction to engineering class is a good idea, but you will be learn a lot more by talking to people actual in the field.</p>
<p>Aside from the difference enginnering displines (ME, EE, CE…), they also have a very broad function. Their work can range from research, design, contruction, testing, operation & maintenance, sales, and marketing. Certain work are mostly office based, some are done in the field.</p>
<p>Some people may say if you like to build thing, you will like engineering. Not necessary true. Engineers are involved in many aspect of a project but may not be actually involved in the construction. Some may not even see the final product.</p>
<p>If you know you want major in enginnering, the apply to the engineering school. You can always transfer out. It also not impossible to transfer into engineer fro other school if you change you mind in the summer before freshman year. Just mirror the engineering school requirements in the college erolled and transfer in the second semester. If transfer after freshman year, you may have to take additional class or summer class to catch up. Freshman year, all engineering students pretty much take the same classes. </p>
<p>Also look at the college essay requirements. A required essay may be along the line of why engineering or what intrigue you to consider the field of engineering.</p>