Questions about Michigan

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
21

(Sorry, I was not able to edit the previous post. Please look here.)

Thanks for all your replies!

After all these discussions, I guess my concern would be that the large class size may stifle my education and research opportunities.

I have looked at the various programmes by Umich.

I am actually interested in the learning communities at Michigan, such as the residential MRC and Living Arts as well as the non-residential UROP and Comprehensive Studies Program in order to obtain more personalized help from the professors and advisors.

I am also looking at the International Programs in Engineering to do a semester at UM-SJTU in Shanghai as well as attend some summer programs overseas.

Are these programs hard to get into?

In fact, the main reason I currently face a dilemma is because I have also been admitted to the Singapore University of Technology and Design in my home country. Below details what they offer me:

  • Small class size, all conducted in classrooms. (2 professors to 45 students in a classroom)
  • Curriculum developed by MIT, taught by top professors coming from Caltech, Stanford trained etc. trained in MIT. No TAs at all.
  • Suitable major for me: Engineering Product Development (Mechanical Engineering)
  • Unlimited research opportunities on a professor's project/ your own idea. Funds projects too.
  • Full scholarship which includes a overseas exchange to Zhejiang University in the summer; with internship
  • Possibly a chance to go for a 3 month programme at MIT/ Overseas internship.
  • There's no bond and allows me to pursue entrepreneurship after my university studies.

Only drawback is that its new (just 4 years) and may not have the prestige/ alumni connection many top research universities have. Moreover, if I am not able to succeed in my start up, I would most probably be stuck in Singapore (due to the lack of overseas exposure and recognised degree) doing engineering work which may not necessarily excite me (in maintenance, upgrading of current products instead of R&D).

As for Umich, I am attracted by the following:

  • Possible even better faculty than what's offered in SUTD
  • Possible internship/ future job prospects in top technology companies (Apple, Microsoft, Boeing, Ford etc.)
  • Higher rate of success in technology entrepreneurship with large-scale support from VCs and large market -Ability to complete Masters in a top university in 4 years.
  • Chance to explore many different parts of the world through IPE/ CGIS (fully paid by scholarship)

However, I would be bonded for 6 years doing Defence R&D working on unmanned systems. While it is something I am interested in and I believe the experience will be immensely helpful to me in the future with the greater utility of unmanned systems such as driverless cars, robots, unmanned drones, it will impede me from my goal as a technology entrepreneur. This is why I am unable to make a decision and I hope to gain assistance from experienced folks like you all.

22

Forgive me, but i am thinking the only thing that would stifle your education and research opportunities at one of the world’s top Eng programs might be a MINDSET, not class size :wink: On the contrary, a large, well-funded program offers more opportunities for collaboration and synergy among peers.

Likewise, I highly doubt that having the opportunity to work on unmanned systems would “impede” your goal as a tech entrepreneur…it should instead inform it!

Just my 2 cents :wink: There are different ways of looking at things.

23

I find the quote at the top of this post VERY misleading. USNWR is probably the most widely read college ranking report and it ranks UM #29.

There’s plenty of reasons why the USNWR ranking needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Also, I’m sure that Alexandre has many reasons why that ranking does not fit his caveated list of rankings (academic reputation and prestige), but nevertheless readers should be aware of the full picture. That full picture is sometimes hard to find when “cheerleaders” redefine questions to end up with a desired result.

24

The quote is not misleading at all CHD2013. Alexandre correctly stated that Michigan is among the top 15 universities in ACADEMIC REPUTATION. Even USNWR the PA scores make it easily a top fifteen institution for ACADEMICS. Too many people just assume that because of the private school bias’ of USNWR, that their overall ranking system is a proxy for quality of academics.

25

“That full picture is sometimes hard to find when “cheerleaders” redefine questions to end up with a desired result.”

You do realize that the OP is an international. He sees the world rankings that somehow elude “cheerleaders” of overrated private schools who rely too much on the USNWR. Michigan is easily a top 25 school on the entire planet for overall academic excellence. If anything, Alexandre is being modest.

26

^We’ve disagreed about these issues before and there’s no point getting into it again. I just want to point out to other reads of this thread that it may be helpful to do your own research rather than taking everything read here at face value.

FWIW, USNWR doesn’t have a ranking specifically for academic reputation and/or prestige. However, its ranking in which UM comes in 29th is their view of the “Best” schools and their definition of Best includes16 indicators of academic excellence. Also, that 29th ranking is achieved only because liberal arts colleges are not included in the ranking; they have their own ranking and its possible that some would rank higher than UM of the rankings were combined.

I’m not trying to denigrate UM. I think its an excellent school. But let’s make sure that readers of this thread get the appropriate picture.

27

“I’m not trying to denigrate UM. I think its an excellent school. But let’s make sure that readers of this thread get the appropriate picture.”

Appropriate picture? That is why you are on the Michigan message board to remind others that there are better schools out there than Michigan? Nobody ever stated that Michigan was the best school in the country. However, by every reasonable measure for overall academic excellence, there are not more than 15 schools in this country that can equal the depth and breadth of quality that Michigan provides. If you don’t think that Michigan is ACADEMICALLY a top 15 school in this country, then you are the one who needs to do a bit more research.

28

The world isn’t so fixated on USNWR rankings as some here on CC:

“benjamineu, did you apply to schools like Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Rose Hulman, Cooper Union, Olin, Rice, etc…That is where you are likely to have smaller classes. Research universities like Berkeley, CMU, Cornell, Georgia Tech, Michigan, MIT, UIUC etc… typically have larger classes and less accessible faculty.”

“@alexandre I have only applied to Caltech. I am on a scholarship from a company involved in Defence R&D so I can only attend top research universities.”

Notice the OP is ONLY interested in, "top reseach universities. " That is why USNWR, and most other publications, separate out LACs into another category. It’s interesting how some posters who don’t try to, “denigrate” Michigan would even mention LACs as if they should be included in the rankings of research universitiies. In other words, according to these people, Michigan shouldn’t even be ranked #29…it is still too high.

29

No, I am simply reading threads on a forum that interests me. I then some saw info which I found misleading and provided a different view along with some facts.

Classic misdirection. The topic of UM being the best school in the country was not part of the conversation - it’s a new comment that you’re using to divert attention from the actual topic of discussion. The point was, that I felt that @alexandre’s comment about UM being in the top 15 was misleading.

Bottom line, I’ve mentioned some facts about actual polls. If they’re wrong please let us know. I’ve also stated some opinions. You disagree, you’ve made that point clearly. Please, let it go now - its ok to disagree about opinions .

30

“The point was, that I felt that @alexandre’s comment about UM being in the top 15 was misleading.”

Now you are misdirecting. Alexander mentioned that Michigan is a top 15 academic insitution in prestige and reputation. Undergraduate rankings that are biased towards private schools do not automatically mean a university is ACADEMICALLY prestigious. Let me be perfectly blunt…Michigan is more prestigious academically than at least half of the universities ranked above it at USNWR. There is no debate. I suggest you let it go.

31

^You’ve alluded to this “academic prestige” a number of times now. You say I’m misleading by not acknowledgin the "academic prestige. I have no idea what you’re talking about and have the feeling i’m not alone. Please explain.

However, I think its going to be really hard to be convincing that -

  • is not misleading when you and he know full well that the USNWR is an academic reputation rating and that it rates UM at #29.
32

“…is not misleading when you and he know full well that the USNWR is an academic reputation rating and that it rates UM at #29.”

Actually CHD, the USNWR has an academic reputation rating. It is called the Peer Assessment Score (it is to be called the Academic Reputation Rating until 2004). According to that rating, Michigan is tied at #12 with Brown, Duke and Penn, with a rating of 4.4/5.0. So even according to the very flawed USNWR ranking, Michigan’s academic reputation rating puts it in the top 15.

And CHD, do not bother quoting the USNWR ranking on this forum. We all know it is filled with inaccuracies. The Faculty Resources and Financial Resources rankings are riddled with lies, and any educated person knows that.

All private universities conveniently and deceitfully leave out thousands of graduate students from their student to faculty ratios. Michigan is honest enough to include graduate students in its calculations. So much for the Faculty Resources rank. If the USNWR is willing to accept this blatant and shameful lie, you might as well throw out the Faculty resources ranking. It is completely inadmissible.

And Michigan’s endowment is the 7th largest in the country. On a per/student basis, even when you do not include state funding, Michigan is still one of the 20 wealthiest universities in the nation (10 wealthiest if you include state funding). I am not sure how the USNWR came up with the #41 Financial Resources rank. Perhaps it is a type and they meant #11.

And the alumni donation ranking is pathetic.

The only thing misleading here is your quoting the USNWR when you know it is faulty.

33

^All ranking systems have flaws; they’re subjective by definition. However, you seem to focus on them when they benefit UM - reference top 15 rankings - and then denigrate them when they don’t suit your purpose. I’m not going to ask you which are the rankings that you value, because its been asked before and you know the flaws with those rankings too. It doesn’t stop you them for referencing them in this attempt to boost UM.

I point out the above for the benefit of newer readers to this forum. And I’ll repeat for their benefit, please do your own research because information posted here can be misleading, skewed, biased etc. Review my facts, review the facts posted by others. Then make your own decisions.

34

“I point out the above for the benefit of newer readers to this forum.”

Newer readers to this forum also do not know your biases.

“Review my facts…”

What facts? You only look at the composite ranking of a faulty system and then just assume that Michigan is not as highly ranked in ACADEMICS as those schools listed above it. Alexandre gave you the PA assessment scores. What did you bring?

35

“And I’ll repeat for their benefit, please do your own research because information posted here can be misleading, skewed, biased etc.”

Yes, please do look at the world rankings of universities at serveral different sites. They invariably have Michigan within the top 25 in the world. They aren’t, “skewed and biased” against public universities like the one at USNWR.

36

“I find the quote at the top of this post VERY misleading. USNWR is probably the most widely read college ranking report and it ranks UM #29.”

“- is not misleading when you and he know full well that the USNWR is an academic reputation rating and that it rates UM at #29.”

  1. The OP is asking about engineering;

  2. the ranking for the COE for nearly all departments is in the top 10;

  3. given the above two facts, what about the #29 for the entire school versus a top ten ranking for
    the COE confuses you?

  4. should the OP be concerned about the broader school, or about the ranking for the school which he expects to attend;

  5. UM’s ranking is in the top 15 for reputation according to the THE rankings which are global; UM’s global ranking is higher than the domestic ranking. What about that confuses you?

What axe are you trying to grind? Why are you cherry picking the rankings to make an argument to serve your own purposes rather than serving the OP’s goal of determining a ranking for a program which he wants to attend?

37

@blue85 - I have no agenda here, simply reacting to what I consider misleading info. It’s really funny, I’m actually a big fan of the school. Nevertheless, after all your rebuttals and those of a few others I stand by my original point that the comment -

  • is misleading.

One simple fix could have been, “Despite the fact that the flawed USNWR ranking has UM at #29, most academic reputation ratings of universities place Michigan in the top 15.” Plenty of others would work too. But it needs fixing.

To address your points.

  1. I agree, but the comment I found misleading was about the overall university. Maybe it was irrelevant, but I still found it misleading.

  2. see point 1) above

  3. not confused at all, but I’d find references to the COE much more relevant than comments regarding academic reputation and prestige

  4. this question has nothing to do with the issues I raised

  5. again, not confused, just think the misleading post that I addressed could have been more clear if it differentiated based on domestic/international, COE/overall U etc. The way it was framed it was misleading

38

According to the USNWR Academic Reputation Rating, Michigan is #12 in the nation, tied with Brown, Duke and Penn. So I was right, and you are the one who is being misleading, not me. Like I said, all academic reputation ratings of universities have Michigan in the top 15 in the nation. All of them without exception.

CDH, methodologies can be flawed, data should not be. By definition, data must be accurate, or it should not be used. I post facts and only facts. Speaking of facts, I do not like any ranking, including those that rank Michigan well. I have always gone on record in CC saying that rankings are flawed and that I prefer ratings. So your claim that I favor rankings that are kind to Michigan is in fact incorrect. I do not. I consider rankings like The Times, QS, ARWU etc…as flawed as the USNWR and have expressed as much frequently. What makes the USNWR such a poor source is that its methodology is questionable and its data integrity is clearly lacking. I can forgive methodology, but when data integrity is decidedly incorrect, the ranking loses all credibility. The fact that you defend the USNWR baffles me. If the USNWR presented data accurately, without changing its methodology, Michigan would be ranked in the top 20 for sure.

I like reputational surveys, like the Peer Assessment Score because they do not pretend to be scientific or accurate. They merely measure the opinion of a particular demographic.

While I am definitely very fond of Michigan and actively defend it when people bash it, one does not become Super Moderator on CC exhibiting any sign of bias for or against a university. Accusing me of boosting Michigan is preposterous.

39

^I’m not accusing you boosting Michigan. However, at least one comment you made was clearly misleading.

With respect to your comment that you prefer ratings over rankings, that’s a very fine distinction. Now that you describe that distinction I see your point and in the post I objected to you did use the term ratings. Nevertheless, I still think its misleading because most readers are not going to make that super-fine distinction. Why not just describe what you mean in a way that most people will understand? You obviously have the wring skills to do so and know all the issues very well. At least for me, that type of description will make your arguments much more powerful.

I won’t be responding to this thread anymore. I realize it may be off-topic by this point and I don’t want to be a distraction. If anyone thinks these posts already have been distracting I sincerely apologize.

If anyone wants to debate my opinions on this matter further, I’m happy to do so via PM.