Questions about PreMed at Notre Dame???

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
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<p>Princess
yea I had an issue with the whole orgo 2nd sem first year thing, but I think it helps students figure out if they really want to go to med school (weeding out thing I guess) early in their college career so they can easily switch to other majors without having to maybe fulfill other requirements. At least that's what I think... (being optimistic here). I know a few people who are contemplating/planning dropping pre-med after taking orgo and there are many spots opening up in orgo lab sections. so maybe that's it? </p>

<p>anyway,</p>

<p>I'm doing decent in orgo, but a few of my friends excel at it. One of them studies orgo for like 7 hours a day and gets good grades while another doesn't take notes and just listens in lectures, but still manages to get 90s on the two exams we've taken.</p>

<p>Just watching them makes me jealous! I def. knew from the stats that my class was incredibly smart, but feels like a constant reminder!</p>

<p>Is it true that there are people who are inherently good at orgo while there are people like me who have to work their behinds off to get good grades? What do you think they have to make them SO good at orgo?</p>

<p>BTW, I didn't know that the science GPA med schools calculate includes calculus.... the horror! I'm horrible at math and calc b isn't getting any easier :( how much does calc grades matter?</p>

<p>Also, a junior pre-med in my dorm section says that GPA is pretty much set early on and as semesters go by, that "base" GPA doesn't really change a whole lot. Is that true? Are there ways to bring up a science GPA that has been damaged by orgo and biochem?</p>

<p>sorry for the long post and questions.
Thanks so much!</p>

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<p>Hi Wowser,
Yeah, I think there are people who get orgo, and then others who have a difficult time with it. It's a different kind of thinking than most of us are used to. That said, if you work hard enough, you will do fine. </p>

<p>I think that if you're struggling with orgo, you should really think about making it your priority for the the semester. Find the best way to study, and spend time in office hours asking lots of questions. Ask so many questions that you're annoying to make sure you use the TAs and the Prof. the best you can.</p>

<p>Calc B is tough for many. I would recommend finding old tests and doing as many test-like problems as you can. Also, make sure you spend a good deal of time doing problems out of the book as well. Hate to say it, but calc grades matter just as much as chem grades and orgo grades: it's an equal partner in the science GPA calculation.</p>

<p>Finally, I would say the junior pre-med in your dorm is about 25% right. Your GPA is noticibly affected if you get a GPA that is either significantly higher or significantly lower than your previous GPA. If you get a 3.0 your first semester of college, and then a 3.6 your next semester, your new GPA is a 3.3...in essence you've raised a B GPA to a B+ GPA. If you get a 3.6 the next cycle, you end up at about a 3.45, so the rate of attrition slows down the more semesters you get under your belt. YOu can imagine though, that the more you get the 3.6, the closer your original GPA gets to a 3.6. For the science GPA, you'll be able to take classes like Cell Bio and other easy ones to raise your GPA, so right now, you should focus on getting the best GPA you can...not what your GPA will be when you apply to med school. Finally, take the advice of junior-premeds with a grain of salt, they tend to be worriers and often give you advice of passion, not of reason (I say that with love). </p>

<p>Finally, don't measure your success by the success of others. Your friends may be good at orgo and it may not be your strongest subject, but in med school, it's a completely level playing field where everyone struggles. I wish I would have learned to be fine not being the best at stuff earlier....</p>

<p>Best of luck, and let me know if i can help in any other way.</p>

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<p>Congrats to all of those students who were admitted to Notre Dame. Hopefully you will choose to become part of the true university community that is Notre Dame. </p>

<p>I thought I'd post some of my opinions on choosing a school with premed in mind. I graduated in 2007 as a premed (ALPP) and anthropology major(ohmigod...almost a year now...ahh!) and now attend the University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine. (Almost done with my first year of medical school...ahhhH! again)</p>

<p>One thing to keep in mind at this point, is that you can go to any school, major in anything, and still go to med school. That said, I would highly advise high school seniors against choosing a school because "it has a good premed" program. You definitely want to go to a school that has solid programs overall (because most high school seniors aren't sure of exactly it is they want to pursue academically), but think about the whole university experience too. You want to go to a school that you love, that will help you develop into a well-rounded adult with developed passions and interests that will motivate you for life long-learning. Med schools' admissions love those phrases: "developed passions" and "life-long learning". You will be so much more captivating in medschool interviews if you've had a truly enriched college experience. Read through this thread for some specifics on the Notre Dame premed program. I chose Notre Dame because it was a solid, well-rounded academic school, rooted in faith; I also loved that students knew how to have fun, were involved in community service, and there were a ton of opportunities to be involved in research, student clubs and leadership. Finally, Notre Dame has this community feeling that I really didn't feel at other schools; upon visiting, I felt so at home that I couldn't go any where else. </p>

<p>That said, if you're in love with more than one school and can't decide, here's some things to consider. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Should I attend School X because they have a med school attatched?
You will have great access to doctors and plenty of shadowing opportunities during undergrad if you attend a school with an associated med school (which ND does not have). The downside here though, is that you will be competing with med students for said opportunities. South Bend has a myriad of health venues for clinical opportunities, but you will have to travel off campus to get to them. </p></li>
<li><p>There's a really awesome research project going on at School X that I want to participate in...should I attend School X?
If you are choosing a school because you want to participate on a specific research project, this might not be the best strategy. A better one might be to choose a school that has a lot of cool projects going on that you're interested in; you'll have a better shot at getting something cool without putting all of your eggs in one basket. </p></li>
<li><p>School X has a higher percentage of students accepted to medschool than school Y. Should I go to school x? School X is also ranked higher.
If you go to college and work hard, and do the right things, you can get accepted to a medical school, no matter what that school's statistics are. At many of the top schools, students who decide the hard work isn't worth it, or just don't like the material enough to stick with premed will leave the program because it's tough work. In my class of 2000 students at Notre Dame, our entering freshman class had 700 students who were initially premeds. Senior year, only about 250 applied to med schools; 85% of us were admitted to at least one med school. So competitiveness of premed program influences how many students will stick with premed, and the quality of the end applicant pool. Other schools may have more med school applicants (more stuck with it), but a lower percentage of admitted students. Take home point: students from all types of colleges get into med schools. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>That said, your college's reputation can definitely impact what kind of med school you get accepted to, although, I'd like to say that this has less of an influence than a candidate's qualifications. Basically, any school with a solid academic reputation will do well for you 4 years from now when you apply to med school. </p>

<p>Ok kiddos, that's all I can think of right now, but if I can be of any further assistance, please post on here, or send me a private message. If all else fails, or you can't decide, come to Notre Dame! It's the best. :)</p>

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<p>That was a great post!</p>

<p>PrincessND, I put my interested major as Psychology/Neuroscience and would definitely like to do some Philosophy classes. That said, what I'm getting from your thread, I could still go to med school even if I majored in one of these things? I really know nothing about the requirements for med, but I definitely, DEFINITELY would like to keep that door open for later. Not sure if I'll end up doing it, but it's something I'm definitely interested in and I don't want to get to my junior year and say, man, I really wish I had chosen premed.</p>

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<p>Justbumming,
Yes! You can do whatever you want, as long as you make sure you get the right prereqs for medical school (i.e. gen chem, orgo, bio, and physics). Read through this whole set of pages and you will get some insight into going into medical school from ND. If you aren't sure if you want to go down one of the premed paths, you could always just sign up for freshman gen chem (to keep your options open) and then decide what's right for you after you've explored some interests. </p>

<p>Also, you are required to take Philosophy classes at ND (two I think), so take one class early so you will be able to determine if you like it enough to choose it as a major or minor.</p>

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<p>What a great post! Congratulation for getting accepted to prestigious schools. </p>

<p>PrincessND, i was just petrified with fear (really...) when u said that "biochemistry is a tough major and not a lot of people who want to go to med school major in this area," because.... i 'm going to major in biochemistry if i go to ND. Can u tell me what makes biochemistry a tougher major than other majors? Is U Notre dame reputable in science major? are there more courses that i need to take? Moreover, do u think it's going to be difficult for biochem major students to study and do extracurricular activities and exercise on a same day? I also want to ask you whether u participated in extracurricular activities in freshmen year or u started EC from sophomore year. Thx.</p>

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<p>Kor_JP,
I'm glad to see you are seriously considering ND! Biochemistry is a VERY tough program, but people survive it. I would say that if you're thinking medical school, you need to be involved in things, which is why many of people I know who were originally biochem majors eventually switched. From what I've heard (which is going to be second hand because I wasn't a biochem major), it's more difficult because you take a lot of higher level science courses at the same time. This also means you have tons of labs, and each one is three hours a week. So if you have three courses with labs, you have 9 hours of lab alone, in addition to your classwork. Biochem majors generally take more credit hours than other science majors and generally just have a lot more work to do. </p>

<p>In terms of ECs and working out, etc, a lot of this depends on your own priorities when you get to college. You can make time for whatever you want, but remember that for med school, you have to get pretty good grades. </p>

<p>ND's science programs are fantastic (at least they were when I graduated in 2007). I feel like our professors really cared about our learning, and always went the extra mile to help us outside of class if we asked for assistance. But science at ND is notoriously difficult, because nearly all of them will be on a curve, so you're competing with other really smart science majors to get an A. </p>

<p>Don't let any of this scare you though, if you really want to do Biochem, do it, just know that there's some degree of sacrifice required. But you know that biochemical discovery requires work, so the biochem major should be difficult right? ;) </p>

<p>I started getting involved in minor things freshman year, but I really threw myself into leadership roles starting sophomore year. I think it's important to succeed freshman year in time management and adjusting to college, rather than focusing on medical school so soon. </p>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

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<p>I am in Pre-professional studies and need to pick up a couple of the easier science electives since I am having to carry a heavy schedule and work as well. Does anyone have any suggestions, especially on the biology side?</p>

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<p>Hi Westcoast,
Try cell biology with D'Souza-Schorey. She's pretty easy and all of her test questions come from the powerpoints. Also, try looking up profs' reviews on Ndtoday.com. It'll give you insight from students as to a particular professor's difficulty (or lack thereof).</p>

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<p>Hi again, everybody. First, let me say that if you sent me a private message, I still have a bunch I have to answer, and am slowly but surely making my way through all of them, so please be patient and know that I will answer you! Keep the questions coming; it offers a great opportunity to procrastinate from studying. :)</p>

<p>I thought I’d do a frequently asked questions post, because some of these questions come up a lot, and I think they’re interesting, so here we go. </p>

<ol>
<li>Are there merit scholarships for medical school? </li>
</ol>

<p>Yes, and some schools offer more of them than others. I know that Vanderbilt School of Medicine offers about 30% of their incoming class each year a full tuition scholarship for four years. Mayo, a really small school, offers nearly all of its class full-tuition scholarships. Most of these scholarships are awarded to the school’s top admittees, but nearly all schools also offer need-based aid as well. Sadly, for most med school attendees, your MD will be paid for via loans, I’m afraid. </p>

<p>There also other opportunities aside from scholarships to go to med school for free. There are programs that you can apply to that would require you to practice in an underserved community for 2 years after residency in exchange for loan forgiveness. In addition, some med students take advantage of the military, which not only pays tuition, but also gives a monthly stipend for room and board, in exchange for your commitment to practice in a military setting for a specified number of years. Finally, there’s the old MD/Phd option. If you pursue a PhD in addition to an MD, your medical school and PhD training will be paid for. Most medschools have MD/PhD programs, and in addition to free tuition, you also get a stipend to cover living expenses. The downside is that it takes a LONG time to finish MD/PhD programs, but if you’re genuinely interested in a career in research or academic medicine, this may be a good, and less expensive route for you. </p>

<ol>
<li>What is the med school curriculum like? How hard is it, really?</li>
</ol>

<p>Your med school curriculum will vary depending on what school you go to. Actually, there is a big push now to shift the traditional curriculum for a more integrated approach, so I can only comment on the curriculum I am currently taking: </p>

<p>Your first two years of medical school are called the pre-clinical years, because you spend most of your time in class learning how to treat patients. First year is the study of the “normal” human. You’ll study anatomy (with human cadaver dissection), histology, embryology, physiology, biochemistry, cell and molecular biology, neurobiology, biostats and epidemiology, genetics, and nutrition. In addition, at Chicago we get some introduction to clinical medicine with clinical classes on taking a medical history, vitals, and the cultural context of medicine. We’ve also taken several seminar classes on healthcare in the United States and medical ethics. Second year is the study of what happens when stuff goes wrong. Second years study pathology, microbiology, pharmacology, physical diagnosis, and clinical pathophysiology. </p>

<p>Third and fourth years are the clinical years, where you’re actually in the hospitals, working with residents and attendings to take care of patients. At Chicago and most other med schools there are 7 required clerkships (or rotations) for third year: Neurology, Ob/Gyn, Surgery, Internal Medicine, Psychiatry, Family Medicine, and Peds. During fourth year, students generally complete the final required clerkship (Emergency Medicine), and take electives and subinternships, and apply to residency programs. Fourth year internships and electives allow students to get more experience in areas that are related to their desired specialties. For example, a 4th year entering emergency medicine may spend time in cardiology to better understand the pathophysiology of heart failure and other acute cardiac conditions. </p>

<p>Med school is hard, but everybody gets through it. If there is any advice I could give to someone picking a med school, it would be to go to a school that has a pass-fail system for the first two years. I have found that the lack of competition that comes from the pass-fail system has really created a collaborative, non-stress learning environment for our class. </p>

<ol>
<li>What are the most competitive specialties to get into?</li>
</ol>

<p>So during your fourth year of medical school (which is a long way off for most of us), you go through this program called “the Match”—I will omit most of the details here for simplicity. Basically, you apply to a bunch of residency programs in the specialty you’d like to enter and rank the list of programs that you applied to after interviewing at all of them. The programs then rank all of their applicants and there is a mysterious computer program that compares applicant’s rank lists to program’s rank lists and matches graduating med students to residency program spots all over the country. For instance, if you applied to hospital A and ranked it your number 1 choice, and hospital A also ranked you it’s number 1 choice, you’d end up at hospital A. I know it’s confusing, but bear with me. </p>

<p>Some specialties have fewer spots available than applicants applying, and those specialties are known to be the most competitive, because there will always be a number fourth years who won’t match into a program in these specialties. These specialties include plastic surgery (which only has 80 spots nationwide), dermatology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery, and radiation oncology. Other specialties are less competitive, and have more spots open than applicants applying, or a similar number of spots to applicants applying: Internal medicine, family medicine, and peds. Many other specialties (i.e. Ob/gyn and emergency medicine) are somewhere in the middle. </p>

<p>When choosing a medschool, it’s sometimes helpful to get a list of where the school’s fourth years have previously matched, especially if you’re interested in one of the competitive specialties or would like to do a residency at a top hospital. If you want to do orthopedics, but a given med school doesn’t match well at ortho, you might want to choose a different school. If you’re into plastics, it’s best to choose a school that has a history of matching in plastics. </p>

<p>Stay tuned, more to come.</p>

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<p>Where can we find a match list?</p>

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<p>Nearly all med schools will have at least the current year's match list on their websites. Here's a link to Pritzker's 2008 Match list (from March). </p>

<p>About</a> Us : Match Results | Pritzker School of Medicine</p>

<p>Our seniors did really well this year: top 5 hospitals (ranked by number of placements) were
1. University of Chicago Medical Center
2. Northwestern Hospitals
3. Harvard Hospitals
4. Columbia Medical Center
5. UC San Francisco
5. UCSD</p>

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<p>Princess, your generosity in answering all these questions- particularly during your first year in med school- is truly remakable. Thanks! I think you touched on this earlier, but here is our question: S is choosing between ND and our State U. (U. of Ga.) for college. ND surprised us with just enough aid to make it doable, but he would incur debt of about $60k for undergrad. ND is truly all the wonderful things you've described, but what would you say its advantages are when one applies to med school? In other words, how does going to ND help you get into med school, and is it worth the significant debt?</p>

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<p>@PrincessND</p>

<p>I see no matches for opthalmology. What does this mean?</p>

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<p>Hi Merkur,
Just glad if I can help anyone take this incredible journey. :) Your son has a difficult decision, especially if he loves both schools. I would say that you can get into medical school going to any undergrad institution, but the ND name can really help you get into the top schools, or get into a school if you're on the borderline. Is that edge worth $60K? That's a decision I can't make. If you get into a top med school which helps you get into a plastic surgery residency program, the $60K would have definitely been worth it. Most other cases are far less clear I would imagine. </p>

<p>But if your son thinks he will have a better experience at ND, or has his heart set on ND, tell him to take the debt. It seems like a ton of money at this point, but $60K will pale in comparison to the debt he'll likely incur as a med student. At the same time, while I'm not one to believe that money should play a huge role in one's decisions, it's important to think about what he'll do if he doesn't decide to go into medicine. You may want to explore ways of loan forgiveness such as post-graduate service for in case he decides in college that he'd like to pursue a less-compensated career. </p>

<p>If in the end your son decides on U of GA, he just needs to make sure that he's consistently getting As and is really setting himself apart from his peers. I would imagine that UofGA is a huge state school? If so, he needs to really stand out both academically and in EC's to get the best recommendations possible from the top faculty at that school. Another thing is advising: ND students are coached through the application process; your son needs to find out if similar opportunities are available at UofGA and if not, he needs to find a mentor who know about med school admissions to help guide him through it. Advising is a place where the top private schools, like ND, really excel. </p>

<p>Best of luck in this difficult decision, and please let us know what he decides. :)</p>

116

<p>Afruff,
Pritzker is a relatively small medical school, and no one from this year's graduating class chose ophthalmology as a specialty. If you were interested in ophthalmology and this medical school, you might ask about subinternship and elective opportunitiess in ophthalmology as well as the match lists from a few years back to determine if how students in the past have matched in this specialty.</p>

117

<p>Hi Princess ND!
Basically, I want to be you. I want to do so well at Notre Dame that I'm accepted to the best med schools. Do you have any advice for incoming students about what to do to be as successful as you were?</p>

118

<p>Hi CTCutie,
Aww, thanks! Here's some things that I thought really contributed to my success: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Work hard...but play hard too. Getting into medical school is tough, and you will have to get really good grades. For many of us, this requires hours and hours of studying, going to office hours, and just putting in the time to do well. But it's really important for your sanity that you enjoy college: go to parties, football games, etc. Having a social life/incentive to finish studying in a timely manner will help you keep your motivation. Also, while having fun, don't get in trouble and be careful. You won't want to have to explain to a medschool interviewer why you got that minor consumption ticket. </p></li>
<li><p>Pick a major you LOVE, not one you think you should choose. Too many people choose their major based on what they think med schools want to see. Many end up hating it, doing poorly, and switching majors midstream. Decide what you like and do that, and don't be afraid to explore your interests by taking "out-of the-box" courses. This may be your last opportunity to explore things like Peace Studies, Gender studies, or take a language like Arabic or Chinese. Take advantage. If you think you'd like to go to med school, just make sure you have your science pre-reqs. </p></li>
<li><p>Go talk to a premed advisor your FRESHMAN year. It helps if they get to know you early on. I'm not talking the FYS advisors, I'm talking about the actual pre-professional advisors in Jordan: Dean Kolberg and Father Foster (I think he's still there). They can also answer any questions that you have and help you stay on the right track. They are busy, but if you email them, they should most certainly agree to meet with you as a Freshman. </p></li>
<li><p>The MCAT is important. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. Some people try to cram for this in 6 weeks, but I studied all of my junior year and did pretty well. You have to know your study style, but in general, study hard for this, and if you think it will help, take a prep course offered through Kaplan or the Princeton review. Take lots of full-length practice tests. For all of you, the MCAT will be computerized, so it's now only 5 hours, compared to 10+ hours when I took it. Aim to get at least a 30, but for the top med schools you will need much higher than that. And there's no way around it, the MCAT is TOUGH. But you can do it! You go to ND afterall. </p></li>
<li><p>Be well-rounded. Find a few activities that you're passionate about and get really involved in them, workout, don't skip meals, and watch some TV (I love Grey's Anatomy and Deal or No Deal). That's all there is to it. Do some less-comittment requiring activities too. Remember that no matter how busy you feel, it will only get busier throughout the rest of your life; work on balance now and you will be so much better off in medical school. Also, your summers should be spent doing something. Don't sit at home. Do research, get a job, but don't sit at home. Med schools want to see that your summers were productive. </p></li>
<li><p>Make sure that you want to be a doctor. This seems like a moot point, but once you get into medical school, it's really hard to turn back. Get lots of clinical experience, and ask yourself, "do I really want this lifestyle"? Some of you will realize, it's not what you thought it would be, others will LOVE it. If you love it, it'll give you new motivation, if you hate it, you'll have saved a ton of time and money. (It's also important to remember that not all med school grads wind up taking care of patients. Some end up in research, politics, etc, but most DO take care of patients in some context.)</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>PrincessND,</p>

<pre><code> I will be a junior SCPP at ND this fall. I was just wondering if you had any recommendations for general electives and science electives? Also, when do you recommend taking the MCAT? If possible, is there anything you would change about your experience at ND? Thanks so much for all your help!
</code></pre>

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<p>ps- does anyone know which med schools the class of 2008 is attending?</p>