Below are some questions related to viewing mainstage musicals at MT programs; thanks in advance for answering any part of these questions where you have insights / opinions:
Are prospective students allowed to watch either a “live stream” and / or “on demand” copy of current / very recent mainstage musicals (e.g., through YouTube link) of MT programs they audition for? What’s the most prevalent method of watching them and what has worked for you? Are there any schools that don’t facilitate such viewings?
Do you think such viewings should be an important method of evaluating a MT program; why or why not?
I ask these questions because distance from most programs as well as schedule will preclude most opportunities to see a show live; only possible if it coincides with an audition schedule which I suspect won’t be that frequent as we hope to take advantage of unifieds too.
@Twelfthman I guess we never really asked about this. I suspect that most if not all do not allow this due to licensing restrictions. BW live streams concerts but not musicals. Molloy/CAP21 doesn’t stream anything.
I think viewing them would not really allow for the overall picture of a program. Being in the room watching and “being in the moment” is totally different in my opinion than watching a stream of it on a computer. Visiting the campus and sitting in on a class, talking to the current students on campus, evaluating the course loads are all great ways to help decide on where to apply to a school. One MainStage musical may be fantastic and the next one at the same school may not be “up to par”-anyone can have a bad performance. And yes, due to licensing restrictions, most schools won’t be streaming their performances. If a person is trying to decide where to apply, they are far better off by evaluating what they want in their program as far as conservatory style, BA, BFA etc and then cast a wide net. If and when accepted, then visiting and evaluating the productions would come into the decision process. I also think looking at the type of musicals a program does and how many they do a year should be a part of the decision process.
I doubt that this would be an option because of licensing. Colleges are very cognizant of licensing rules. My older kids are/were also theatre majors and I’ve been to many college shows, and there’s never even a ‘secret bootleg’ parent in the audience like I’ve seen at local/HS shows.
It’s possible that they may have a sample reel that they can share with you but that would likely be edited to show their best side. But it can give you a feel for their productions at least.
That being said, most kids applying/auditioning will have to cast a wide net because the ratio of auditioning to acceptance to these programs is small. Maybe you can use other criteria to choose your larger pool of schools to apply to, and then when you’ve received acceptances, you may be more able to visit the smaller number of schools accepted to.
Colleges and conservatories are still training programs. Productions are a part of that training process, not an end result. Reviewing shows could be a helpful way to evaluate programs, but it is impossible to know all the reasons/decisions/factors that go into any particular production.
Are the students being introduced to new or experimental work? Were students heavily involved in the development of the show, and/or were guest artists and creatives involved? Did the show emphasize something from the curriculum that might not be widely accepted by an audience but is crucial to performers growth and exposure?
I’ve come away from a lot of shows scratching my head only to have my more knowledgable companions laud a technique or praise an attribute beyond my grasp.
I didn’t realize that licensing rules wouldn’t permit perspective students from viewing a production remotely; I want to understand this better.
I do know that my D has been able to see West End productions online through her public high school as well as produce DVDs of their performances to be viewed later (i.e., not charging to view it but just watching it) so I’m trying to wrap my head around how the high school make these arrangements but a university somehow cannot. The high school is very on top of complying with all licensing arrangements so I don’t believe they are doing something they shouldn’t. I would appreciate any additional insight anyone may have on this topic and to what degree there are different “rules” for colleges / universities than for high schools.
The thought would be to watch a mainstage musical of a college or university that has offered admission (and not toward comprising an initial short list of schools), so the number of mainstage musicals D would see would be a very small number. Also, I wasn’t envisioning that this would be a main evaluation criteria; as you have pointed out, the overall picture of the program is most important; also, to see a show live would be even better than remote. But I sense already that we won’t be able to do everything we want as part of this application process – time and money will impose limits for us – so I’m trying to put together a plan that is workable, and being able to view a recent mainstage musical online, from beginning to end, would be better option than not seeing one at all, but just an additional data point and nothing more. Even if we are able to visit a school that has offered admission, there’s no guarantee that a mainstage musical would be shown when my D is there.
I know a couple of kids who didn’t see any college / university performance, and then during their freshman year realized not one of the shows was at the level of their high school; at the very least, I would want to know that “going in,” i.e., before I accepted a college or university offer.
So a comment on licensing - usually high schools are allowed to produce DVDs provided they go to a limited audience. That isn’t the same as permission to broadcast the performance on Youtube or anywhere else. Professional organizations may pay for broadcast rights. Colleges don’t seem to do either - not sure if that’s because of the cost and the fact that their productions wouldn’t sell enough to justify the cost or the aforementioned concerns about publishing something when the artists are still very much in training.
Back to your original question -we also had this concern but had trouble finding any single source of measuring production quality. Some schools focus on training and do a lot of developmental or student driven productions, others really polish their shows and have professionals drive. Many schools don’t let freshman perform, some always do. It’s a mixed bag. I found that parent videos of non-copywritten materials, like showcases, were helpful in assessing what was going on in the program. Ultimately, we decided to go with the philosophy that if you have the right talent and training in your program the shows will be “acceptable”. And if you don’t have those two, having super polished shows isn’t all that important.
@CaMom13 is right about the DVDs going to a limited audience.
I’m on the board of a youth theater and am in charge of acquiring rights to the shows our theater produces, so I deal with the licensing companies (MTI, Samuel French, R&H, Tams, etc.) on a regular basis. For each show, there are very specific rules about whether any video recordings can be made, whether they may be reproduced and distributed, and whether they may be broadcast. Some shows forbid any recordings whatsoever from being made – and yes, this includes even an archival copy. Some will allow maybe a 30-60 second clip that the organization may post on YouTube or Instagram as an advertisement. Some will allow the show to be recorded and individual DVDs to be provided to the cast ONLY…it really depends. And I’ve never personally seen a show that my organization has applied for that has allowed any type of live streaming (doesn’t mean it’s never allowed, but definitely hasn’t been for the shows we’ve done). I too have seen that some professional productions on Broadway and the West End do this, but that is a situation that gets worked out on a totally different playing field than theater done for educational purposes.
My youth theater is very, very careful about following the rules to the letter, but I can tell you that many are not. There are shows we have produced that I know for a fact don’t allow recordings, yet I’ve seen videos of them performed by other schools/youth theaters up on YouTube (placed there by the school or youth theater and not someone anonymous) or being sold at concession stands to the general public. We are careful not only because our board is made up of mostly rule followers like me lol, but also because if you are caught breaking the rules you can have your ability to license shows from that company taken away, and our group feels it’s not worth the risk. My D’s PA school is the same. I’m certain that colleges and universities follow the rules to the letter and would not jeopardize their relationships with the various licensing companies by breaking them.
I can’t speak to your D’s HS’s specific shows/situations of course, but I do know in general that there are some schools groups that will follow the licensing rules carefully except when it comes to the video recordings, taking the attitude that “who’s gonna find out?” Shockingly, there are also some schools/groups who don’t bother to apply and pay for the rights at all – they just find the scripts posted online somewhere or get one from someone who’s done the show and make photocopies, and then they use karaoke recordings for performances or get sheet music online. When I first heard of this I was stunned and couldn’t believe it was true, but I can tell you it does happen, which is very sad because the artists who created the show are then not getting paid for their work. Again, not trying to say in ANY WAY that this is what your D’s school does or has done, but rather that there are all kinds of shady things that go on that I think most of us would be very surprised by.
I am thinking that if it is a school that has offered admission it would be possible to view archival footage if available and if you are on premises. Archival footage I have seen was not of the greatest quality and a one camera deal, not following the actors but set up for static videoing. I know my son’s school does not have anything on line to view except maybe senior entrance which is spoofy, campy and not a measure of talent. I know this isn’t remotely but perhaps a way to view performance if you can not make a live show.
I agree with those above about yes, it is nice to see a show if it works out, at a
school you are interested in or got admission to. But should def be a very small part of any decision making process. I have seen a slew of college shows from small schools to large universities & I can honestly say i have not seen one to date that made me think “ Whoah I wouldn’t want my kid coming here” . I mean a lot of times there are masters students in the show which makes them better obviously as those students are more experienced, plus of course there will be a weak link or two in a show just like anywhere else but truthfully I am struggling to remember a college show that sucked lol .
What I do like to see and liked to see when my D was evaluating schools was “how many people are here?” Is the theatre supported by the community? I felt like this was nice to know as it shows the theatre dept is supported in general a lot of the time. It’s not like high school where the audience is filled with family. A lot of kids won’t have family come see them in a college show. It’s nice to observe how the rest of the college population and the town supports the Dept.
I remember at one school we went to , the audience was filled w/ an older crowd . I spoke with a woman next to me and asked who she knew in the show and she was like “ no one we come to all the shows. “ . Turns out the community is hugely supportive of live theatre & turns out in droves thereby lots of money to the theatre dept
Remember that when your daughter watches British productions, London theater is heavily supported by the British government and that’s very different than much of the way that our economy works.
Agree with @PaperTrope. The students are being stretched and trained. You may be watching as student in an extreme “stretch” role. We just came back from a program called “froshapalooza” at Boston University where freshman presented 10 minute scenes. I asked my D how the scenes were chosen and cast and she said, in general, students were given scenes to work on weaknesses, not strengths.
I also agree with @PaperTrope and @artskids. These are training programs and and many are “educationally” casting based on the needs of the students, not to show off their talent. Same thing with “Freshman Showcases”. We watched so many freshman showcase videos online. At my daughter’s school, Freshman Showcase is something put together by the Freshman on their own time, in their spare time. For fun. It is not a showcase or recital showcasing their hard work for the year. The focus is on the training and learning, not on showing off talent.
That being said, we did see many college productions along her journey, and each one was fantastic!
Thanks again for everyone’s input (including @muttsandMT sharing expertise; that was awesome). I agree that these are training programs. She’s not expecting or looking for a finished product. Still to align one’s expectation of how collegiate shows compare to one’s high school would be grounded ideally by some exposure, instead of being an unknown. I will try to get her to see a couple live shows, and in the case or two when this isn’t possible, explore what other viewing might be possible.
Your collective input does make me wonder, however, (1) how a prospective student best evaluates the training offered at each program. (2) How do you compare the trainings offered with the goal of being a well-rounded performer? Evaluating the curriculum / coursework (blind comparison), attending a class and talking to current students about their training and experience will get done, but (3) what aspect of training should be emphasized and how should they be evaluated?
(4) What aspects of training related to acting, voice, dance, music literacy and supplemental related skills are most important to being a well-rounded performer?
@PaperTrope raised such topics as student involvement in show development as well as exposure to new work.
(5) In what ways have some programs distinguished themselves as a training ground and why?
Any help on this topic and answering any of these related questions would be greatly appreciated.
@Twelfthman while I think that evaluating the level of training is a piece of this process (you certainly wouldn’t want your kid to go to a school that has no idea what it’s doing), the education to be a performer is much more than if we check off generic boxes that lead to one’s moment on a stage. Some schools are extremely intense and cutthroat in their culture and some kids thrive on that, while others who look at the success rate of such a program and decide to attend, might wither up and not be able to grow as a performer with that much pressure on them (for the school I’m thinking of, I know a kid who is currently thriving there and another who transferred out by the end of the first year). Some schools focus on classical training and some contemporary, so you couldn’t even really compare those even if both offer top-notch training because they’re apples and oranges, and different kids will thrive in each. One of my kids has a BFA Acting from a school that is edgy (some might say weird ?) so they put on some very ‘interesting’ productions, and that has a professor who is also a playwright so my D got some very unique training in how to originate/workshop a role, and how to produce some non-standard theatre. Students have traveled to fringe festivals and stayed local in their regional city’s thriving arts scene to be in plays written by that professor. My other BFA actor (currently in college) has a more standard repertoire in his school’s productions but the school financially supports student-initiated projects in a different way and there are grads who’ve learned early how to create their own theatre companies from scratch. My HS senior who is headed down the BFA MT route is going to a school that has an MFA program that trains MT creators so he might have the opportunity to participate in MFA works in which he’ll learn to originate a role, but maybe where he won’t be so much of a creator of entire performance pieces.
There are so many variables, and one major one in this really challenging audition-based process is—which schools can your kid actually get in to? Another variable is how your kid feels when he spends time with the professors and other students in the programs he’s been accepted to. Once accepted, sit in on classes. Visit with professors. Talk to students. Performing has to come from a place of personal comfort. To be a true artist, one has to be in a place in which his personal abilities and potential are nourished.
To put this another way, a school like CMU has some crazy-good stats right? Lots of their grads are working professionally. But they also produce some really incredible graduates who aren’t able to sustain a profession by performing. Some will go into a related field (maybe producing or something else in the industry), and some will leave the industry altogether and work in a field they’d never imagined that they would. No program’s training is a guarantee. So while you’re looking for schools that have good success rates, also pick programs that are the right fit for the actual person that your child is.
@Twelfthman - I can almost see your spreadsheet! I know what you’re looking for - a set of criteria where you can objectively evaluate the quality of a given school and it’s frustrating because all people can tell you in that it’s all about “fit”. And truly it is. There is no ABET equivalent for MT programs and for those of us who are fond of hard data it’s maddening - is the training at Podunk U really as good as the training at Top Choice U? No one can say, you just hear “my child loves it” or “so and so just moved there and s/he’s great”. It’s all soft information and for those of us used to academics where hard numbers are much easier to obtain, it can be annoying.
I totally hear you that your daughter wants to go to a school where the productions are at least as high-quality as her high school or community theatre and if that’s a non-negotiable issue then you need to prioritize visiting the schools when a show is running. But the lesson you should take away from the feedback above is that BFA MT parents have seen their kids shift focus in college - where it used to be all about the show, now it’s all about the training and the shows are the cherry on the top.
@lovetoact makes a really important point about the development of an artist. These students aren’t just getting dance / voice / acting classes - they are figuring out who they are and what their place is in the huge performing arts arena. Artists that are produced lock-step aren’t artists. My MT kid might want 6 semesters of contemporary dance and yours wants 8 - or 12 - or 2. Some students train with the goal of graduating to Disney Princess, others want to work in avant garde MT. Who your daughter is now isn’t who she will be when she graduates from college - the changes in their self-image and career goals is huge in the first year alone, more so, I think, than for academic programs.
So back to the basic problem - how do you evaluate the quality of a program’s training objectively? My answer (and many people will disagree, I feel sure) is to look at what the alums of the program are doing now. For any MT program some alums will happily be teaching spin classes so you’re not looking for 100% Broadway employment but look at how many graduates 3-7 years out are still actively working in the performing arts and what they are doing. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with a BFA program producing many graduates who make a living outside the performing arts but I think if a program has sufficiently strong training the result will be at least some working artists; seeing where they go and what they accomplish in life is informative. It’s a lot of work and you can’t rely on College Confidential stories because we are parents, we are a small, vocal subset of parents and we are ALL biased. If you want an unbiased idea of whether the BFA students are getting what they need to move on in a performing arts career, you need to do your own footwork.
@lovetoact and @CaMom13 - wholeheartedly agree with both of you. Additionally, @Twelfthman, different programs emphasize different aspects of MT (there’s a thread on this somewhere!) - some focus on acting, some on dancing & some on singing. Some schools require a lot of theory, others very little. Some train classically, others don’t. D1 wouldn’t audition at any school that required an art song - personal choice/preference! She is a MT alum from a school with a heavy acting emphasis. However, even though they’re acting-focused, their dance classes are leveled, and if a student wants to, they can take dance major classes, which many of her friends did. The friends who are excellent dancers are the ones who are currently booking the most jobs, but they are actors who can sing & dance.
Research the programs, keeping in mind what your D wants out of a school, and make a great list from there. I would recommend having at least an initial meeting with a a college audition coach. A regular college counselor is generally not going to be able to help with college auditions. There are many great coaches out there who are knowledgeable about programs and could probably answer a lot of your questions.
Thanks to everyone for your helpful recommendations and food for thought. I’m sure by following the process, she’ll uncover good fits and hopefully she’ll get into at least one program.
