Questions!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Barnard College
1

<p>I’m probably going to Barnard regardless… .but there’s a few things I’m curious about :)</p>

<p>1)Has anyone had any luck appealing financial aid?</p>

<p>2)How are health services? What about residential life - is a switch managable, if you have issues with your room mate?</p>

<p>3)How’s the food?</p>

<p>4) I know this one has been asked a lot but I’ve heard a lot of conflicting responses. What is the relationship like between Columbia and Barnard students and is it true that Columbia students look down on Barnard-ettes (haha) and/or do a lot of people see Barnard as a “back door Columbia” (I totally disagree with this statement as I would never go to Columbia but love Barnard… yet, two people said that to me when I told them I was applying; twas kind of annoying… although… I don’t like those people anyways… so whatevs… I’m just curious as to whether Barnard students hear this too)</p>

2

<p>As you probably can tell, I am a mom but here are my two cents' worth:</p>

<p>1) We were okay with the package we got...not easy, mind you, but fair I suppose, so we really did not try hard to appeal...
2) My d has been pretty pleased with health services, though she says the people can be abrupt at times. They were VERY nice to her, though, when she was very ill... As for switching rroms, I have no experience there. My d absolutely LOVED her first year roomies that Barnard put her with. They do an EXCELLENT job of matching you up, as long as you and they fill out the pretty extensive questionaire they will send you this summer, that is! I believe you can switch if you must but am not sure about this...
3) the food (and you must be on the meal plan as a first-year as you will live on the "Quad") is EXPENSIVE but good, I think. The expense, relative to what you can cook for yourself once you can get in a suite style dorm with a kitchen, is just something we had to grit our teeth about and bear it.
4) This attitude issue is something my d feared as well but it has NOT been a problem for her. Many of her closest friends are CC students. IMO, if you ever encounter it, you will be able to discern that it is more a problem for the person complaining or "looking down" on Barnard women than it will ever be for the Barnard students themselves. I think some CC students just need to find something/someone to complain about in order to inflate themselves...</p>

3

<p>This was reassuring! Thanks :)
Does anyone have experience with 1 or 2?</p>

<p>And another one I forgot...
On this board, and also on the facebook group, people have referred to Barnard as "part of Columbia."</p>

<p>Quotes from the facebook group that really suprised me:
"No one at my school (in NYC I might add) gets the fact that Barnard is part of Columbia. THey just think that it is near Columbia, not the same thing. Meanwhile one boy in my class got into Harvard and everyone at school, students and teachers, are all celebrating that Danny got into an Ivy, but no one (not even my headmaster, who brags that ONE student, Danny, got into an Ivy) gets that I am in one too. It really annoys me. But I know that I am in an Ivy, so I guess that is all that matters. Still, I would like some acknowledgement"</p>

<p>"hahahah i always have to explain that Barnard's part of Columbia. No one gets it, so half the time i just say Columbia."</p>

<p>Isn't it true that BArnard is an independent institution, therefore not part of Columbia and not ivy league?!?! I would think it is misleading to say you go to Columbia, when you go to Barnard. I am confused.</p>

4

<p>aube, there you have the "crux" of the matter: Barnard's relationship with Columbia is unique and can be confusing. To me, at times, even the websites of Barnard and Columbia University can seem contradictory about this. Barnard is an "affiliated" institution in one place and then will be referred to as "one of the Columbia University undergraduate programs" (or some such) in another. Top this all off with the fact that very, very few people even know about Barnard as opposed to Columbia, and you have a scenario all set up to result in just what you have described: someone trying to "impress" someone else by throwing out the "Columbia" name, and not "Barnard". Most often, when people ask, we just tell them our d attends "Barnard which is a college affiliiated with Columbia", but by then their eyes have already gone all glassy...</p>

<p>Barnard is "independent" in that it has its own administration, endowment, admissions department, etc. Yet Barnard's faculty must secure tenure from both Barnard and Columbia and Barnard students receive a degree granted by Columbia University. And of course you know as a Barnard student you can take almost any class you wish to take at Columbia (though my d has most often chosen the Barnad classes). As a Barnard student you will have opportunities to apply for and secure internships along with Columbia students. You will be able to play on the same sports teams and join the same clubs. IMO, Barnard is, hands down, the better end of the deal!</p>

5

<p>To say this has come up before is a bit of an understatement. From these prior posts I have distilled the following. People who know please correct me if I've got any of this wrong.</p>

<p>Barnard and Columbia are structured as independent institutions.
However, Barnard is an affiliate of Columbia. Meaning they share resources under a long term contract.</p>

<p>As a result of this affiliation, and geography, Barnard effectively functions in many ways as though it's literally a college of Columbia University. And in fact at various points in their history it literally was. But, as a technical matter, now it isn't. It's an "affiliate". </p>

<p>Barnard students play on Columbia teams, join Columbia clubs and sororities. They are on Columbia's campus, use Columbia's gym, library. They take Columbia courses, taught by Columbia faculty, to the tune of 20,000 credit hours annually. At the end their degree is issued by The Trustees of Columbia University.</p>

<p>But yet as a matter of technical accuracy they attend Barnard, not Columbia.</p>

<p>This point is a matter of complete indifference to most at Barnard and many at Columbia. However there are some Columbians who did not realize beforehand the degree to which Barnard students actually participate in Columbia's life. Some of these people then wonder what are all these Barnard people doing on our campus, and they get all ****ed off because these people with "only" a 25% acceptance rate are getting essentially the same deal they are getting with their 8% acceptance rate. </p>

<p>But then after this initial reaction during freshman year, once they figure out this is really how its been all along and these people aren't so bad anyway, most of them just learn to deal with it. With a few still muttering under their breath.</p>

<p>Columbia is a member of the Ivy League, which is an athletic conference. Originally the Seven Sisters, which included Barnard, were set up because the Ivy league (mostly) did not have women. But with coeducation everything is screwy. Barnard women play on Columbia teams. Does this make Barnard a member of the Ivy League? De facto possibly, but not explicitly. The matter is, yet again, confusing.</p>

<p>I can see why you're confused. I think everyone's confused about a relationship where somebody claims to others that you don't go there but then awards you their degree. I think of it as Columbia University's child by a prior marriage.</p>

<p>My suggestion is, to get what a Barnard student gets it is worth enduring some confusion as to how to describe it.</p>

6

<p>Great job, monydad, at clarification. And welcome to the Barnard parent's club!</p>

7

<p>I'm just visiting. I signed off "for good" after D#2 ED, but cajoling notices appear on your CC screen if you don't post for a long time. </p>

<p>To continue:</p>

<p>All parties agree that Barnard is clearly part of "the Greater Columbia Community". And it is clearly a Columbia affiliate.</p>

<p>Here's a Wikepedia description of "affiliate" :</p>

<p>"A corporation may be referred to as an affiliate of another when it is related to it but not strictly controlled by it, as with a subsidiary relationship, or when it is desired to avoid the appearance of control. This is sometimes seen with multinational companies that need to avoid restrictive laws (or negative public opinion) on foreign ownership."</p>

<p>In my opinion, in this case "appearance of control" is really the operable point here. Barnard operates with a large measure of autonomy. But
Columbia controls ultimately via the affiliation agreement. One Barnard president actually resigned when she realized the degree to which Columbia effectively controlled Barnard.</p>

<p>So to say Barnard is not part of Columbia is disingenuous based on the actual situation on the ground, but it is technically accurate due to how Columbia and Barnard have administratively structured their relationship.</p>

<p>Those Columbia students who are upset that Barnard students in fact get all the same stuff they do place great emphasis on the technical administrative separation, and downplay the meaning of affiliation in this case, and the actual, de-facto non-separation.</p>

<p>Apparently some Barnard students casually refer to themselves as Columbia students. I'm sure in most cases they identify that way as proud members of "the greater Columbia community", not for purposes of deliberate deception. But maybe also some say they are Columbia students so that certain resentful Columbia students won't discriminate against them while they are on the Columbia campus.</p>

<p>But apparently some Columbia students get all bent out of shape when they hear this, because they want to believe you're fraudulently masquerading as a Columbia student for the purpose of garnering unearned prestige. As opposed to persecution avoidance. Or earned prestige. So this is a point of contention among some Columbia students.</p>

<p>Finally, as yet another, and final, point of ambiguity, the degree Barnard students earn is in fact issued by Columbia University. And on resumes many or most Barnard grads correctly identify their degree as BA Columbia University. Most probably additionally say Barnard College, but some do not. This also frosts some Columbia College grads who claim Barnard grads are misrepresenting themselves. Actually they are correctly representing themselves, since that is actually their degree.</p>

<p>IMO if they want Barnard students to stop saying they have Columbia University degrees they need to get Columbia University to stop issuing them Columbia University degrees. </p>

<p>So in summary, from what I've gleaned there is some undercurrent of resentment among a subset of Columbia students who did not previously realize Barnard students were getting all their goodies too. But these people can be largely ignored, may not even be encountered altogether. And the fact is you still get all those goodies. D has decided she will not let the possible low-level noise from certain disillusioned elitist preservationists at Columbia get in the way of what hopefully will be a great experience for her. It's their problem, not hers.</p>

8

<p>Again, well put Monydad. And I hope you will continue to frequent these boards as your daughter begins her own Barnard experience.</p>

9

<p>Thank you monydad and churchmusicmom for your excellent explanations. My D is apprehensive about the Columbia/Barnard relationship. She doesn't want to be seen as a second class citizen and she doesn't want to choose a school simply as a back door into another school. Is it a two way street? Do Columbia students take classes at Barnard?</p>

10

<p>Yes, Columbia students can take classes at Barnard. Although I think Barnard classes give preference to Barnard students, while Columbia classes give no preference to anyone.</p>

11

<p>Columbia students take approximately the same number of courses at Barnard. Some Columbia majors are actually Barnard majors with Barnard staff.</p>

<p>My daughter actually didn't like Columbia; she doesn't like the core curriculum or its size. Barnard certainly wasn't a Columbia back door for her. She wanted an LAC. But most LACs are constrained to an extent in resources and course selection, so it's definitely a plus that Columbia is there to backstop whatever the LAC may lack. </p>

<p>In my opinion, those who wind up choosing to take most courses at Columbia do not need to feel as if it's a back door. Barnard students are entitled to take courses at Columbia, via contract that Columbia willingly entered into. That's part of the deal of attending Barnard. Columbia students can likewise, and do, take courses at Barnard. It's not a secret or anything. If someone doesn't like that deal that these schools made among themselves, tough. </p>

<p>But my daughter is expecting to take mostly Barnard courses, which will hopefully be a bit more intimate, with fewer TAs, and professors who find teaching undergraduates to be very important. </p>

<p>We too found the second class citizen premise completely unpalatable. However, my daughter wanted a great LAC with a great dance program in a great city, and there's no better choice for her even if she has to put up with a little attitude to get it. Which frankly she won't suffer much at all. Besides, the predominance of CC posts indicate that this will be more or less in the noise, particularly after freshman year. There are good points and bad points about every school and this is a bad point that can be evaluated as such, and weighed, as one factor among many, in the overall scheme of things. Other factors being, for example, access to the resources of Columbia, and the best LAC located in a major city.</p>

<p>I don't think my Columbia relative's Barnard girlfriend is suffering too much from exposure to Columbia students. Although knowing him maybe that's too strong a presumption.</p>

12

<p>Thanks again monydad. My daughter also applied to Barnard because she was interested in attending a top flight LAC in a city while having the resources of a major university at her disposal. I wouldn't say she's looking for a back door but she's definitely interested in pursuing classes in her major at both schools. But when friends now attending Columbia make dismissive comments like, "you can always tell who's from Barnard and who's from Columbia," she bristles.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
I don't think my Columbia relative's Barnard girlfriend is suffering too much from exposure to Columbia students. Although knowing him maybe that's too strong a presumption.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I had to read this several times....it makes me laugh, in part because my d IS a Barnard student dating a Columbia student, and who has many friends who are Columbia students. Made me wonder if there is not some strange "six degrees" thing going on here!</p>

<p>Back to the original topic: We were told, in no uncertain terms and by a well-known and very outspoken COLUMBIA prof, that Barnard is a huge and underutilized asset for Columbia students. He feels CC students woudl be well-advised to take as many Barnard classes as possible.</p>

<p>Shoshi, tell your d to just ignore rude comments. She will have a wonderful time and get a fantastic education at Barnard!</p>

14

<p>My daughter will be a Barnard student next year, and, for one thing, her SATs were 70 pts higher than her relative now at Columbia got.</p>

<p>There have been other posts on CC, eg from a CU grad student who said she couldn't at all tell who was from which school, either in class or out.</p>

<p>Why would they be able to tell, when there are such overlapping stats?</p>

<p>I guess to the extent that the two schools attract diffferent personality types. Or ethnic breakdowns.</p>

<p>Otherwise, this is pure pomposity of the type referenced. Screw em.</p>

<p>On average the data shows students from the two schools don't get much different grades in the cross-enrolled classes.</p>

<p>Y'know it's not like students at Barnard, ranked #9 in LAC selectivity, are idiots.</p>

<p>I can just hear the Harvard students whispering" you can always tell who the Columbia kids are..."</p>

15

<p>In terms of experience my D has not felt any prejudice. Depending upon which classes she has signed up for she seems to be mostly on one side of the street or the other. For most classes thus far she has chosen them on the basis of interest in the subject material. For commonly taken classes like Biology or Spanish the side of the street you are on may depend on the time of day you can attend the class.</p>

16

<p>When I went to visit my daughter a few weeks ago, I attended one of her classes at Barnard. I could tell right away that at least 3 of the students in the class were from Columbia. Actually, I think one might have been from Columbia GS because he looked like he was about 30.</p>

<p>As to the female students.... well, that wasn't so easy to figure out.</p>

17

<p>So, do you have to go some sort of special procedure to take a columbia class, or can you just sign up for it?
Also, when you pick your classes do you have to schedule it yourself or do they do i for you?</p>

18

<p>I taught at Barnard for ten years (before moving to California). Columbia students take Barnard classes but as someone noted, Barnard students get priority in terms of enrollment. I honestly could not tell Barnard women from Columbia women (in terms of class performance or anything else). It was only when I consulted the class roster which indicated which college the students attended did I know. Obviously, I knew the male students were from Columbia. Barnard is a wonderful institution. Enjoy.</p>

19

<p>No, you do not need any sort of permission to take Columbia classes unless, I believe, you want some of the "core" classes (Lit-Hum and such) that the CC-ers must have.</p>

20

<p>Coffee, except for a few courses marked "limited enrollment", you simply sign up for it. First year pre-enrollment is a little more limited, but its not binding. You will be given a somewhat more restricted list of courses to choose from, but that list includes many Columbia courses -- the restriction is merely that they are courses that the Barnard Dean feels are most appropriate for entering freshman. My d. wanted to sign up for classes that weren't on that list, so as soon as she got to campus she took full advantage of the shopping period to change to the courses she wanted. </p>

<p>All of the courses available are listed here:
<a href="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you go to course listings "by subject", you will see courses from both sides of the street listed. Try "Anthropology", for Fall 2007. The first course listed is numbered V1002 -- a "V" or "W" numbered course is considered to be jointly offered. That is, it is not tied to one college -- you will see that most of the Anthropology courses are like that.</p>

<p>Now, lets try "Biology" -- the first course is BC1001 -- "BC" means it is a Barnard course, and 1001 is the first year intro bio course offered for students who haven't had AP Biology. If you click the link you will see that the course is a Barnard course, but is open to students at all campuses.</p>

<p>The next course is C1015 -- "C" means it is a Columbia course - and when you click the link for more info, you will see that it also is open to Barnard students. </p>

<p>Now, if instead of clicking the "subject" you clicked the "department" listing, you would see some differences. Click "B" -- you will see separate listings for Biological Sciences, and Biological Sciences @Barnard. Same courses as before, but now they are showing up segregated by school - with Columbia courses on one page, Barnard on another. You could still sign up for either -- it's all one database, just broken out in a different way. </p>

<p>What surprised me, actually, was not the ease of signing up for Columbia courses.... but the fact that a first year student can pretty much sign up for anything she wants, regardless of level. My daughter elected to take an advanced (sophomore level) psych course at Barnard -- it was not among the choices offered to first years over the summer, because intro psych is a prerequisite - but she was able to enroll in the fall. (She has AP Psych credit, so she didn't need the intro course - she did need the prof's permission to enroll). </p>

<p>My d. also decided to take a linguistics course numbered W3101 -- the "W" means it isn't tied to one school ("interfaculty") but the course was given on the Columbia campus. The 3000 number means that it is what would have been called "upper division" when I went to UC -- that is, intended for more advanced level students - sophomores or juniors. But that course actually was listed among the ones available to Barnard first year students -- my d. could pre-enroll in that class over the summer -- and there were quite a few other Barnard first years taking the class. (Hint: don't take this course if you want "easy" - it was the most challenging course my d. had). Anyway -- I was surprised to see that first years were not only allowed to choose upper level courses, but in this case, were encouraged to do so. </p>

<p>I don't know the precise mechanism for signing up for courses. I think what the students do is simply pick the classes from the course selection site above, then enter the course number and title into ebear. (Ebear is the Barnard web site where you get email and manage just about everything). If the course is limited enrollment, then it shows up with a notation in ebear, and the student has to go stand in line somewhere in order to finalize the registration. (My d. missed the cutoff on enrollment in a course this spring for a class she really wanted to take - because the girl 3 spaces ahead of her in line got the last spot - but then my d. emailed the prof. right away and he let her in anyway. That is one of the profs who was so nice to me when I visited). </p>

<p>After all the courses are selected, the student needs to go see her adviser to get final approval. I am sure that is ordinarily no problem, unless some student comes up with a really odd set of choices. </p>

<p>And that's it. </p>

<p>Also, I'm not sure about the "Barnard students have priority" for their own courses thing. That's because I saw Columbia students in the classroom of the same course that my d. missed the cutoff for - so I know that course could have been easily filled with Barnard students. So either those Columbia students also emailed the prof and got special dispensation, or else it is all first come, first served - or else whatever preference there is is set up in a way that holds some spots open for Columbia students. </p>

<p>I would add that my d. has had no problem whatsoever in getting whatever classes she wanted - unless you count the need to send an email to the prof as a "problem." I do know that psych labs at Barnard are hard to get, and there is a psych lottery; also there is a PE lottery. But in general my d. has not run into an issue of courses filling up. This is very different than the experience my son had at an LAC, where there were often too many students competing for a limited number of slots in classes with strict limits on enrollment. During the shopping period last fall, my d. went to one class where there literally was standing room only in the lecture hall, but the prof announced immediately that he would arrange for a larger room if everyone wanted to stay.</p>