Quick Question: Online Math Classes vs MIT OCW

Parents Forum
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<p>Hello,</p>

<p>So I've asked this already in HSL and also my peers IRL with little success, so I'm trying here. </p>

<p>I finished Calculus AB + BC last year as a sophomore. I got 95% for AB; 99 for BC in a fairly rigorous class. I like math and want to continue it, but my school offers no MV or AP Stat.</p>

<p>As such, I was just wondering if you parents had any experience with online math classes and how colleges take them? I was originally going to do EPGY but I heard from someone that it's not very rigorous for a person interested in "First principles". I then considered Netmath at UIUC but the prices are really high. It's 1500/1 class and I don't want to put 3k burden on my parents. I was thinking of OCW but I won't get any credit for it and I don't want to look like a slacker. Finally, I asked my local University and I got a flat out no (Bureaucracies :( ) so I'm stuck.</p>

<p>Any suggestions/advice would be very much appreciated! Thank you! :)</p>

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<p>If you’re interested in a math field (or a science field, although that’s less certain), then I think you need to continue taking math.</p>

<p>Art of Problem Solving offers a bunch of classes that you probably haven’t taken (Counting, Number Theory, Group Theory, Olympiad Geometry, WOOT). Their classes tend to assume you’re math-y and really want to dig deep into the math. There are no plug & chug assignments; they really emphasize problem solving. Classes are synchronous with a class meeting each week (usually). The class meetings are in a moderated chat room and there’s a transcript of the class posted after each meeting. Help is usually provided through a class forum and via grading comments that indicate where you went wrong or what you could improve.</p>

<p>eIMACS offers classes that cover very strict mathematical logic. Classes are self-paced. Help is available via phone or e-mail and they have always been very responsive.</p>

<p>EPGY and Johns Hopkins CTY both offer classes post Calc BC, as do many universities besides UIUC (last time I looked, the list included BYU, LSU, and UTexas).</p>

<p>For university classes, you could be looking for a Differential Equations class, a Linear Algebra class, or a multivariable Calculus class. There might also be a discrete math class that would work.</p>

<p>You can do AP stats online (even without an accredited formal class) and then take the exam and have that as your “proof” that you did it.</p>

<p>My daughter did NetMath the year after she finished BC. College admissions offices didn’t seem to think anything odd about it, as she got accepted at the places she applied.</p>

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<p>My advice would be this: if you want to continue the normal math sequence (multivariable calculus or linear algebra), focus on the quality of the course and not its rigor. If you want rigor and first principles, try an elective like discrete math or elementary number theory (or abstract algebra if you’ve already had some discrete math). </p>

<p>Rigor is overrated in multivariable calculus. It’s no more insightful than rigor in single-variable calculus but exponentially more annoying to make precise (too many running indices…). The ideas, on the other hand, are really beautiful. If you come out of multivariable calculus and you see how this theory arises naturally from single-variable calculus and multi-variable linear algebra, you can pat yourself on the shoulder. Mission accomplished.</p>

<p>The MIT courses are not rigorous either, by the way. They are very hands-on computational and targeted at students who’ll be using math in other disciplines.</p>

<p>P.S. I am a PhD student in pure math. I think that first principles have their time and place, but there’s also a time for building intuition and making sure that your technical skills are up to par. Now is a better time to work on the latter.</p>

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<p>If you just want to continue the normal sequence, you may want to see if your local community college offers transferable courses in multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations (bonus if it also offers discrete math and calculus-based introductory statistics). Because the students who take such courses in community college are those intending to transfer to four year schools in math-heavy majors, they should be modeled on the courses at the four year schools (usually the state universities).</p>

<p>You may think of community college as a place where the aimless slackers from your high school go, but the aimless slackers are not the ones taking multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your input! </p>

<p>b@r!um, I see where you’re coming from. I like looking at the proofs behind ideas, but being able to apply the ideas is extremely important. Maybe if I have time, I can go and look deeper into the proofs for both single variable and multivariable. </p>

<p>ucbalumnus, I have plenty of respect for CC students. Everyone has a different story. Unfortunately, I’m not in America (up north :wink: ) though I am planning on returning for my undergraduate and graduate/professional education and the CCs here aren’t quite the same. There are lots of small “colleges” that are privately owned which I am sort of…hesitant about. </p>

<p>mathinokc, The discrete math/AOPS classes seem really interesting and I’ll definitely keep them in mind for my senior year, which will be far more flexible. Right now, I’d like to do Multivariable Calc and Linear Algebra and perhaps in my senior year, do ODEs and whatever comes after. </p>

<p>I’ve done a lot of googling/cc searching on this topic and I’m kind of concerned about what people say about the classes. I like the UIUC class- it seems reasonable, but it’s 1500 for MVC, 1500 for Linear Algebra and I wouldn’t feel right asking my parents to spend even more money on me, especially since we’re in a relatively rough place right now.
I’ve heard that the EPGY software is finnicky and that a lot depends on what kind of tutor you get.
I hear similar things for CTY also and I’m afraid of putting my parents’ money into something and not getting something out of it.</p>

<p>I’m just lost on what to do. I need to have math, that’s for sure, and its also important that I receive credit for my class. I wrote my vice principal about doing an independent study of it and writing a “paper” to demonstrate what I know, but I haven’t heard back from her yet. </p>

<p>That being said, do you or anyone else have thoughts or recommendations for online courses besides Netmath and especially on EPGY or CTY? I have already applied to EPGY but have not yet paid for the class/sent my SAT scores. </p>

<p>Thank you so much! I am very grateful for all of your opinions.</p>

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<p>I was in the same situation, I ended up going with stanford’s online high school (different from EPGY I think). You had to apply several months ago, but maybe it’s something to keep in mind for next year?</p>

<p>[Stanford</a> University Online High School](<a href=“http://epgy.stanford.edu/ohs/]Stanford”>http://epgy.stanford.edu/ohs/)</p>

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<p>Thanks for the link! I wish I had heard of that earlier :(, but definitely for next year!</p>

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<p>So I found this thread: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1238058-online-multi-variable-calculus-classes-2.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1238058-online-multi-variable-calculus-classes-2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Any thoughts/recommendations on this list of courses, besides UIUC? UIUC would be ideal, but I don’t think it’s going to work. :(</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Many if not most people take AoPS classes to prepare for the AMC competition.</p>

<p>[United</a> States of America Mathematical Olympiad - USAMO](<a href=“American Mathematics Competitions | Mathematical Association of America”>American Mathematics Competitions | Mathematical Association of America)</p>

<p>If you want to participate in the AMC then take them now. Some people start taking classes at 7th, 8th, or 9th grade. You have 1 chance in junior year and 1 chance in senior year.</p>

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<p>If you want to self-study, here are some college sophomore level math books:</p>

<p>[Free</a> Online Course Materials | Textbook | MIT OpenCourseWare<a href=“later%20chapters%20are%20multivariable%20calculus”>/url</a>
[url=&lt;a href=“http://www.math.brown.edu/~treil/papers/LADW/LADW.html]Linear”&gt;Linear Algebra Done Wrong]Linear</a> Algebra Done Wrong](<a href=“http://ocw.mit.edu/resources/res-18-001-calculus-online-textbook-spring-2005/textbook/]Free”>Textbook | Calculus Online Textbook | Supplemental Resources | MIT OpenCourseWare)
[Notes</a> on Diffy Qs: Differential Equations for Engineers](<a href=“http://www.jirka.org/diffyqs/]Notes”>Notes on Diffy Qs: Differential Equations for Engineers)</p>

<p>Some college junior level math books:</p>

<p>[Basic</a> Analysis: Introduction to Real Analysis](<a href=“http://www.jirka.org/ra/]Basic”>Basic Analysis: Introduction to Real Analysis)
[Elements</a> of Abstract and Linear Algebra by Edwin H. Connell](<a href=“http://www.math.miami.edu/~ec/book/]Elements”>Elements of Abstract and Linear Algebra by Edwin H. Connell)</p>

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<p>Can you get your school district to pay for the UIUC courses? We have a local school district that will pick up the cost of EPGY courses for students where the school doesn’t offer a similar course.</p>

<p>I guess the prices for NetMath went up quite a bit. I think that they were about $1,200 when my son took them. He took MB and LA (they called it Matrix Math or something). You also have to get a Mathematica license and buy the courseware (instead of a textbook). There is considerably more material in the courseware than you’d see in an undergrad course. Suffolk University offers the same course for twice as much.</p>

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<p>ecouter11 – If you’ll look, you’ll see that the post you reference was mine. It fits in with my statement:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>If you don’t care about accreditation, buy the MathEverywhere software and buy the student Mathematica license and you can do the same thing that NetMath was doing when my daughter took the course. </p>

<p>Again, if you don’t care about accreditation, there are advanced self-study courses available through Saylor’s. [Mathematics</a> The Saylor Foundation](<a href=“http://www.saylor.org/majors/mathematics/]Mathematics”>http://www.saylor.org/majors/mathematics/)</p>

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<p>The accreditation is relatively expensive. For the tuition/fees, you get a helpline (peer tutor), proctoring exams, assignments, and grading. There are no lectures - you learn from the courseware materials. The Mathematica environment is pretty interesting as you can experiement around visually. The work that you do in Mathematica is akin to coding so some programming background is helpful.</p>

<p>If you dig around on the NetMath site, you can find older versions of the course software that can be downloaded.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the responses! :slight_smile: That actually sounds like a good idea for me- buy the course software and use it as a learning tool. </p>

<p>Coolweather, I’d like to prep for the CMO but I’m already sort of committed to the Chemistry Olympiad which I think will be more beneficial and possibly easier for me to do than the math one as I have absolutely no experience with math competitions and I don’t think I can prep effectively for 2 things at once :(. It’d be a great challenge for senior year, though!</p>

<p>ucb- thank you so much for the links! I’m seriously considering the self study route and these will be very helpful for me. </p>

<p>BCEagle, My school is very good in terms of teacher quality and flexibility but judging by the way our school looks and countless fundraisers we have to run, I really don’t think they have any cash to spare. :frowning: My school is somewhat independent of the unionized school board which significantly reduces the amount of funding we receive.</p>

<p>mathinokc- thanks again for the link! Sorry, I didn’t see that you were the poster with recommendations in that thread. I looked at some of the classes you suggested more closely and I think a self study is probably the best option, probably with the courseware in conjunction with textbooks. </p>

<p>That reminds me, so I talked to my vice principal (my former calculus and physics teacher) about the getting credit for an independent study and she talked to our new principal and they both really liked the idea and said that I could figure what I wanted to do and write a proposal describing how it would work/be evaluated. Then, at the end of the semester or year, I could present what I’ve learned in the context of a paper or project. I want to try and combine learning mathematics with physics C and use that to hopefully do some computational modeling. I am very interested in combining bioinformatics with basic science research, so I think it would be a really cool opportunity for me. Another reason why I like this project is that I have an offer to work in a bioinformatics for summer 2013 and I’d get to build my skills. </p>

<p>Do you think colleges would find what I’m doing to be ok if I write the AP exams for physics C and maybe submit the abstract of the paper I’ll write? I think I’d definitely benefit a lot from doing this but I don’t want to get in trouble for “not taking any math”. >.< </p>

<p>Any advice or thoughts on this would be very much appreciated and than you again for your earlier responses! :)</p>

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<p>Subtly bumping this…</p>

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<p>For the Linear Algebra, you might take a look at Khan. But the guy who teaches Linear Algebra at MIT OCW, Strang, is something of a cult hero, so sticking with him is also a good idea. But of course, with either the Khan Academy or MIT OCW, you have to discipline yourself to do the homeworks, since no one is setting up a course structure for you.</p>

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<p>Thanks! I will definitely check him out.</p>

<p>Also, any thoughts on what colleges might think of the independent study? I’m probably going to be studying Physics C and MV/LA in tandem and writing a paper/doing a project on them. I’ll be supervised by a principal and be evaluated at the end of the year.</p>

<p>Thanks! :)</p>

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<p>In general, colleges are in favor of you challenging yourself. Will the school list those courses on your transcript? Or will it just be on your application when you disclose AP scores?</p>

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<p>If you’re at the level that I estimate you’re at, I think you’re past what you’ll get out of CTY (Johns Hopkins) or EPGY, at least based on what they were 6-7 years ago. As someone mentioned, Dr. Gilbert Strang for Linear Algebra, or Dr Levin (sp?) for physics, etc are great options from OCW. </p>

<p>You may also want to look into math contests like the AMC-12 leading to AIME, and USAMO, the ARML for team contests, or the equivalents of things like the Harvard-MIT math tournament. </p>

<p>This is a while back, and I don’t remember the specifics, but at least one college was interested in DS’s AMC-12 and perhaps AIME scores, and the fact that he was in a pretty strong ARML team and attended many math contests may have scored some points in his application. Some of the skills you develop in some of these are totally new from many HS’s math curriculum where you have basic algebra, basic geometry, basic trig, and two or three levels of Calc. There’s so much more algebra and geometry that you can pick up that schools skip in their desire to head into Calc, and others such as Combinatorics and discrete math topics that often aren’t even given anything more than a passing glance. If you can incorporate this in your application, I’m sure you won’t come looking as a slacker just because you didn’t have a course in your transcript.</p>

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<p>mathinokc, It will be for credit, so my school will put it on my transcript along with a grade. </p>

<p>Dad<em>of</em>3, I think you and everyone else here has me won over with the math contests, haha. I’ve been skeptical of my ability to do well in them, but it might just be worth a shot!</p>

<p>I’m still sort of on the fence with EPGY/CTY. On one hand, they are from reputable universities, but they’re kind of pricey for me and I won’t get school credit. </p>

<p>Ugh, I just wish everything was less complicated, haha :stuck_out_tongue: Thanks for the advice and as always, I’d greatly appreciate any thoughts/opinions you may have!</p>