"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 6

Applying to College
361

<p>

And here’s where I step in after my oath to refrain from posting on this thread:</p>

<p>You’re looking at the wrong goal here. The goal ought not to be to solely increase minority representation; the goal SHOULD be to eventually have a significant percentage of minorities be able to get into top colleges without any discriminatory means. I think this gets lost in the heat of the debate but it is crucial that we acknowledge it; if you don’t accept this statement for whatever reason, do mention it.</p>

<p>Most likely this won’t just happen by itself. Heck, I don’t think anyone really knows what to do, other than a vague “education reform” and “encouraging minorities to pursue their intellectual curiosities.” If we put our collective mind into considering this, though, isn’t it conceivable that there is a viable solution? One that might be able to restore the racial disparity?</p>

<p>You say affirmative action is necessary to attract top minority students because of the paucity of high-scoring minorities. Won’t there be an increase in high-scoring minorities if we can, as I said above, reach an alternative solution? It would be gradual and perhaps it would be a delayed reaction, but I’d estimate that a couple of years after minority “stats” increase, minority representation at top schools will greatly increase.</p>

<p>So why not affirmative action? For one, it’s morally objectionable; I hope everyone here can appreciate that. But there are other issues. Are we really naive enough to believe that there isn’t a sort of crutch effect created by affirmative action? And this is in no ways an attack on minorities; it is something that humans universally experience. But it seems like, if anything, the minority disparity has been increasing or, at best, stagnant. Isn’t the goal, as I stated above (which you are welcome to object to), to have it so that a significant percentage of minorities can get into top schools without racial prejudice? Obviously, there’s the irony of using discrimination to reach the goal of no discrimination, but perhaps more damning is that minority test scores are falling further behind.</p>

<p>Look, affirmative action, I agree, works as a solution towards the former goal that I think everyone has misunderstood as the real goal. And I will concede, as much as I despise it and think it impedes our abilities to think rationally and intelligently, the aspect of political correctness that makes affirmative action more attractive. But if we are genuinely concerned about the minority disparity <a href=“and%20I%20speak%20not%20of%20the%20representation%20at%20top%20colleges%20disparity%20but%20rather%20the%20academic%20qualifications%20disparity”>b</a>** then I cannot see how we can continue to use affirmative action. How long, I must ask? If we continue to treat the situation with affirmative action, when do we plan on getting rid of it? 50 years? 100 years? Is there any removal in sight? That nobody can logically provide an end to it is pretty scary, and that’s why we need to consider alternatives now. Racial affirmative action has no beneficial future.</p>

<p>“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” - Lao Tzu (not sure who you are, but I love this proverb!)</p>

362

<p>

</p>

<p>Please point out to me where I or other posters might have made such comments. It is not my intent to offend you.</p>

363

<p>

</p>

<p>Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Jian Li? Do you think he did the right thing by filing a civil rights complaint with the OCR? Or do you think he was an arrogant jerk for doing that? Or somewhere in between, perhaps?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This may be what it is meant to do, but that is irrelevant. As Dr. Thomas Sowell [has</a> pointed out](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Affirmative-Action-Around-World-Empirical/dp/0300107757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261101980&sr=8-1]has”>http://www.amazon.com/Affirmative-Action-Around-World-Empirical/dp/0300107757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261101980&sr=8-1), what matters is not the intention but the result. Black immigrants or their children make up only thirteen percent of all black people aged eighteen to nineteen in our country, but they make up [url=<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/01/black]41%[/url”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/01/black]41%[/url</a>] of the black students at Ivy League schools. You tell yourself that you’re raising “minorities from the ghetto and impoverishment,” but you’re really helping people who didn’t need any help to begin with.</p>

364

<p>

</p>

<p>Suburban blacks, whites, or Asians - what’s the difference? If colleges really wanted more diversity, surely there would be more Pell Grant recipients in their ranks.</p>

<p>And how are Asians less diverse than whites?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Tell me exactly, if there were no black people at top colleges, what would happen? For one thing, I don’t think that the status of blacks who are unable to get to college at all wouldn’t change a bit.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

365

<br>

<br>

<p>The point I have against your argument is that the typical URM in my kids’ HS was basically no different than a white student in their interests or lifestyles. Their parents were middle class/upper middle class with little in common in terms of life experiences with the inner-city URMs that these programs are ostensibly set up to benefit. So, yes, if you define diversity as just different colors, giving them a boost works, but if you mean diversity is getting a kid who lives in a rural farm helping his struggling dad six hours a day together with a kid who overcame the crime, drugs, and poverty of downtown big city, this certainly doesn’t do one iota of good.</p>

366

<p>

</p>

<p>You say “decline - however not as sharply as [some] presume.” How much is the decline? Given that so-called “underrepresented” minorities actually work hard to get into elite universities, why are racial preferences necessary at all? Your writing suggests that since they work hard, there is no point to preferentially treat them.</p>

<p>You speak of “a huge imbalance.” What does that mean? At what level of Asian representation does a college go from “diverse” into “huge[ly] [un]balance[d]”?</p>

367

<p>To DuckieStyle</p>

<p>“At first the discussion started out mild and somewhat inquisitive, but as more and more people post, this ‘crowd mentality’ takes off and people post things they wouldn’t dare say in real life. Yes - you feel angry about affirmative action - so go write a letter to your local newspaper, call your district representative, email CNN - but posting in an online forum isn’t going to change anything.”</p>

<p>Yes, but posting it in an online forum will lead to discussion.</p>

<p>"In my honest opinion, I believe Affirmative Action does more good than HARM. Yes, it does have it’s [its] downfalls, and can be improved. But should it be removed? ABSOLUTELY NOT.</p>

<p>In the philosophy of Booker T. Washington - “Education is the key to success.” People sometimes forget that affirmative action is meant to balance the table - by raising minorities from the ghetto and impoverishment, and educating them so they can succeed. Because lets be real with ourselves - the psychological aspect of being a “second class citizen” exists within all minorities in this country."</p>

<p>Raising people from the ghetto is socioeconomic affirmative action–this reasoning still doesn’t address the paradox of Colin Powell’s son–and there are plenty of non-URMs in poverty as well. There is still racism in this country, but is it really fair to penalize me for that, even if I haven’t contributed at all to the problem, and have possibly even helped to end it?</p>

<p>“I mean - think about it. If we got rid of affirmative action, what would happen? First off - the amount of minorities in elite, and to a certain free, middle, colleges would decline - however not as sharply as you all presume (contrary to popular belief, minorities actually work hard to get into these universities).”</p>

<p>And those that worked hard to get in would deserve their spot just like anyone else.</p>

<p>“The Asian percentage would probably rise also - but this would create a huge imbalance. This isn’t good for a Universities at all - because most of them want a class more diverse than the United States actually is.”</p>

<p>They can want whatever kind of a class they want–but did Asians have any choice in their race? Did anyone else? Why should people be penalized because other people who look like them are more likely (not because of genetics, but because of class) to be competitive candidates?</p>

<p>“What can we do to improve Affirmative Action? - As of now, we should base it on a socioeconomic level.”</p>

<p>Agreed.</p>

<p>“But how? Thats the main question. How in the world are admissions officers going to take all socioeconomic factors into question when considering an applicant?”</p>

<p>I don’t know, tax returns, the FAFSA, the CSS profile, the secondary school report…</p>

<p>“It’s easier and more efficient to just admit by race -as they already do.”</p>

<p>It’s easier and more efficient still to index by SAT score. But we don’t do that.</p>

<p>" Plus it creates diversity - something every college on earth wants so they can create brochures without actually photoshopping the black people in. (Google this - its hella funny)."</p>

<p>Diversity at the price of what, though?</p>

<p>“I know some of you are going to bi*** and scream and proclaim how unfair it is to admit admit a lower scoring black dude than you with your superior intellect and 2300 SAT score”</p>

<p>It’s not all about SAT scores, and it’s not in any way about keeping minorities out of colleges. I think legacy admissions etc. are just as illegitimate.</p>

<p>" - but hey, life isn’t fair."</p>

<p>Great justification. Really thorough.</p>

<p>" What you can do, if you feel strongly enough, is to contact your representative, and raise awareness and try to get the law changed."</p>

<p>OK, but it’s too late for me anyway.</p>

<p>" But despite what you might think - I still believe, and will always believe that Affirmative action holds a special niche in college admissions."</p>

<p>Once again, nice argument. I believe that Mel Brooks is the second coming of Christ. Just because I do.</p>

<p>"And for those of you who don’t value diversity for the sake of diversity…I pity you. "</p>

<p>To see racial diversity, we must see race. And as long as a distinction is made, inequality will exist.</p>

368

<p>

</p>

<p>If you accept this, then you should realize that they’re ( pro AA and anti-AA) the opposite sides of the same coin,it’s just a stone’s throw from this choice to NOT accepting according to race…you’re letting big brother in the door.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Asians are already diverse, ethnically, nationally, and culturally. Increasing their percentage would not worsen diversity if looked at from this perspective. It is unfair to lump all asians into one category. On that note, it would be fair to say , also , that African americans are a diverse group…there are rather distinct disagreements between those of Caribbean , recently African, Latin,and American subgroups of the diaspora on the topic of entitlement. It is inaccurate to label such disparate groups ( and admit them into colleges ) broadly on the basis of skin color. I don’t deny that discrimination on the basis of skin color existed, but there are so many other ethnic, cultural ,economic, and local community factors that would point to either disadvantage ( for college) or a lack of disadvantage, that would make this system ( AA ) ineffective.</p>

369

<p>And hey, if they got rid of AA, and somewhere down the road non-URMs were being unfairly favored, I know I’d be back on this board.</p>

370

<p>

Your words are mere platitude, my friend. Does diversity matter? Yes. Does diversity take a precedent over racial objectiveness? Think about that.</p>

<p>I still challenge how AA is resolving or will resolve the goal I stated earlier: “to eventually have a significant percentage of minorities be able to get into top colleges without any discriminatory means.” If anything, AA is contradicting that goal.</p>

<p>Again: Just for now, look past the unquestionable prejudice that is going on and ask ourselves these general things that would seem imperative to even argue for AA. I am drawing blanks here.</p>

371

<p>“You’re looking at the wrong goal here. … the goal SHOULD be to eventually have a significant percentage of minorities be able to get into top colleges without any discriminatory means.” </p>

<p>Wrong for you maybe…I think both can happen, and for now, I’m doing my part on both ends…</p>

<p>“Oh, and Shrinkrap, I value your opinion, if possible , could you explain your posts a bit more, please?”</p>

<p>Ooo! How could I say no to THAT kind of flattery! Working on a better response, but serioulsy, sometimes this just does not seem like the place. I understand why a CC poster would be up in arms about college admission, but for me, most times it feels like there are more important wars to wage.</p>

<p>I will say this. “Affirmative action” never occurred to me before coming to CC, but if that’s why me and H met, and made babies with “good” SAT’s and the money to pay for a great education, oh well…</p>

372

<p>well shrinkwrap, if you’re on the receiving end of such policies, there’s infinitely more important wars to wage</p>

373

<p>

The goal I’ve stipulated IS related to the goal you’re interested in; it’s essentially the first goal happening the right way. The current attitude towards the first goal (affirmative action) is contradictory towards the goal I think and I hope we all think is the most important.</p>

<p>

It’s nice to hear a success story but there is nothing to suggest that affirmative action has produced a trend of success stories.</p>

374

<p>bump…</p>

375

<p>I am torn between being happy for them ,but then realizing these kids wouldn’t have even been considered if they were not URM, I’d understand quadruplets getting in if they were #1,2,3,4 with straight 800s, this is YALE for crying out loud… but no one in the top 1% even. This is a publicity stunt for Yale, and a plug for their holistic admissions process. Bravo for getting in …</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/education/19yale.html?hp[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/education/19yale.html?hp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

376

<p>^ The thing to do for admitted students is always to be happy for them. The thing to do for students who were denied admission at some favored college is to cheer them on to apply to some other college, if there is still time for that, or to bloom where they are planted. The thing to do to reform college admission practices is not to let a few salient anecdotes overwhelm what can be learned from more thorough research on those practices.</p>

377

<p>My friend and I were filling out some applications this weekend.</p>

<p>We were reviewing them and I noticed that he put his race down as “Asian.”</p>

<p>I’ve never considered him Asian, but he said that he is because he is 1/4 Japanese. (His grandmother is Japanese.)</p>

<p>We searched the Internet for about 45 minutes trying to find information about what defines race, but it was surprising how little guidance there was. Little = none.</p>

<p>He has always considered himself Asian, so he feels confident that he’s answering correctly. I’m just concerned that a school’s definition of race is going to differ from his and there will be a disconnect regarding admission or scholarship.</p>

<p>Any advice/guidance/thoughts on this?</p>

378

<p>Why would he want to define himself as Asian, anyway? With the exception of maybe a few LACs where Asians are underrepresented, it’s normally a negative on the application.</p>

<p>Anyway, some argue that race is just a social construct. In this case, he can identify himself however he likes.</p>

379

<p>1/4 is .25 percent, not really that much. I say include it if he feels like it/or not.</p>

380

<p>related to this, we had to report our race as part of some new policy at our high school</p>

<p>and if you didn’t report your race, the administration said that they would call you into the office and basically eyeball your race for you. lol</p>

<p>Maybe you could do the same thing? Or don’t they have a mixed race option on application?</p>