@epiphany that is actually unbelievable. Wow. So interesting to know that. Is this in California?
The biggest thing that diversity does is tear down stereotypes that we have for one another. When people are isolated, within their own race, or have little interaction with others races, we tend to have misconceptions about one another. But that may not be enough of a benefit for some. But a good portion of the US is segregated more than most of us would like to admit so I am not surprised at all by your own experiences with students @epiphany .
Princeton is not remotely diverse according to SES. If SES diversity were truly important, you wouldn’t go to Princeton or any Ivy for that matter.
Greater tendency to helicopter parent may increase kids’ tendency to grow up in segregated environments (both race/ethnicity and SES) if the parents apply their own screening based on their own prejudices to whom their kids are allowed or steered into playing with.
Also, some parents deliberately choose to live in more segregated areas, which they consider more desirable because of that, which limits their kids’ contact with people of other groups even outside of helicopter parent arranged activities.
My D is a freshman at Harvard and she values the diversity among her peers in the freshman class. She is from a suburb that is 92% white and most of her friends in high school were either white or Asian. At Harvard, her roommates, friends and classmates are of all races and backgrounds. I believe that on her floor of 10 girls, only 3 are white. They all seem to get along and are friends with each other. My D values the diversity that she is being exposed to and it is doubtful that she could have a similar experience at her state university.
Yes to reply #3103.
THIS, THIS, THIS:
Just as importantly, if you witnessed up close (at an Ivy – I’d say especially H, Y, P, C) and saw the marginalization by SES there, you would not think of attending if you wanted “SES diversity” (more than nominally or formally), and if you were on the low end of SES, boy would you not want to attend. I say this as Mom of one of those above 4 Ivies, whose daughter exhibits class by her manner and behavior, despite her low SES at entrance. (Thus, she was able to navigate well, and being white was also key to that ability to blend comfortably.) Those who are both URM and low-SES – just good luck with that. Sorry, there is overt segmentation, huge loneliness, and tremendous anger. I have witnessed this, again, up close.
So far, the attempt at social engineering has not succeeded.
@roethlisburger - “Princeton is not remotely diverse according to SES. If SES diversity were truly important, you wouldn’t go to Princeton or any Ivy for that matter.”
22% of the current Princeton student body is from low-income, i.e., just about every 1 out of 4 students that my son meets at Princeton. That’s about the same figure as Asian student population at Princeton, by the way. You can argue “not enough!,” but stating that “Princeton is not remotely diverse” is flat out based on misconception. Princeton takes SES diversity seriously enough to make it an institutional goal to expand on it for years to come:
Princeton’s generous FA allows not only these 22% of low-income students to attend full-ride but also allow an upper-middle income student like my son to attend tuition-free. Yes, I wouldn’t send my son anywhere else!
How socioeconomically diverse is Princeton? Here’re the numbers from a NY Times study about a year ago:
Share of students from top 0.1% income percentile3.1%
…from top 1%17%
…from top 5%44%
…from top 10%58%
…from top 20%72%
…from bottom 20%_________________________2.2%
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/princeton-university
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=princeton&s=all&id=186131#finaid says that 16% of Princeton undergraduates get Pell grants, so those from the bottom half of SES are greatly underrepresented. Meanwhile 42% get no grant of scholarship aid, so that top 5% or so of SES is greatly overrepresented.
@arsenalozil “on her floor of 10 girls, only three are white”
It would be interesting to know how many of the 10 are from different SES strata. I have “black/Asian/Latino/low SES friends” does not automatically make me champion of racial/cultural diversity nor necessarily allow me to understand other people’s struggles, actually if these are superficial “friendship” (acquaintances) it might hinder (rather than facilitate) the more privileged to try harder to get to know people of different backgrounds.
I think a perspective is in order. Comparing what colleges like Princeton is doing now with both SES, racial and gender diversity and will continue to do in the future to what they were like a couple decades ago, it’s hard for me to be one-sidedly critical as this thread seems to be relishing in doing. What other institutions are out there with the majority of student body being low SES and receiving full ride? Are there even enough academically qualified students from low SES to fill 50% of the student body at each of these elite institutions? I have no idea, but one thing I do know is that Princeton president Eisgruber is genuinely motivated to do the right thing, and establishing greater SES diversity is one of his top priorities during his tenure. I trust his leadership and I trust Princeton.
Well, I don’t know if it would “hinder,” but I definitely agree that such diversity of mere presence does not necessarily ensure understanding of racial differences, cultural differences, empathy with struggles, etc. Referring again to what I said earlier, I will tell you that most of the millenials who are my students assume we live in a so-called ‘post-racial’ world.
(Okay.) 8-|
Mind you, I do not recommend the kind of hyper racial awareness that plagues many modern liberals, especially those of privileged status. (Guilt) I don’t think that accomplishes anything positive and in fact often magnifies divisions. I’m merely saying that the over-confidence of modern youth that they are supposedly from a generation “so past” racial division reveals a superficial understanding of the dynamics of race.
I don’t know about others, but I certainly was not referring to “a couple of decades ago.”
I similarly trust the effort. That’s very different from accomplishment, because established social patterns are not instantly reversed because of a forward-looking college admissions and funding policy.
“I similarly trust the effort. That’s very different from accomplishment, because established social patterns are not instantly reversed because of a forward-looking college admissions and funding policy.”
But what I see among institutions like HYPS is accomplishment to go along with their efforts. It’s hard to believe that it was only in 1969 that Princeton allowed women to matriculate. If my son had been admitted to Princeton a decade ago (and I doubt that he’d have back then) instead of this past year, we wouldn’t have been able to send him there because institutions like that were indeed for the wealthy. The cost of sending him there is lower than the cost of my older son who’s attending the in-state flag public. That was unheard of before the full need met blind admission policies were put in place. Our family friend’s daughter, the first-gen, low-income Asian student with okay academic stats with no EC hooks, wouldn’t have been admitted to Harvard on a near full-ride if her application had taken place a decade ago. The percentage of Asian student population at these institutions grew each year from a decade ago. What’s there not to like about these institutional accomplishments? There are of course much more room for accomplishments, and like I said, I trust their efforts.
This is financially impossible for typical colleges. Most students cannot be full ride. Someone needs to pay the bills. Princeton and most Ivies have a large portion of students from wealthy families who are able to and willing to pay a ~$70k sticker price. Having a good portion of the student body paying such a high sticker price allows them to be generous with financial aid, including offering a “full ride” for most students from families with less than the ~median household income in the United States. This financial model would not work for publics or other other colleges that do not have such a large portion of the student body from wealthy families. This issue also presents problems with switching to a race blind, higher boost for low SES type admission system.
The previously linked NYT article gives some hints at which highly selective colleges are the most SES diverse. Some examples are below that are more SES diverse than Princeton, although still obviously not well balanced.
UCSD: 60% from bottom 80% income, 11% from bottom 20% income
UCLA: 52% from bottom 80% income, 8% from bottom 20% income
UCB: 46% from bottom 80% income, 7% from bottom 20% income
MIT: 42% from bottom 80% income, 6% from bottom 20% income
…
Princeton: 28% from bottom 80% income, 2% from bottom 20% income
…
WUSTL: 16% from bottom 80% income, <1% from bottom 20% income
“This is financially impossible for typical colleges.”
Although my question was rhetorical, this is the correct answer, of course. Yet the same critics seemingly are going to be unhappy until these elite institutions reach that level of population from low SES…
The criticism is more along the lines of claiming that HYPetc. are SES-diverse, even when they are not all that SES-diverse. Yes, they are more SES-diverse than before, but still much more highly skewed toward scions of wealth than most other colleges, including most other private colleges.
Just because HYPS are wealthy skewed doesn’t mean they’re not SES diverse. That’s like saying most colleges are majority white and therefore they’re not racially diverse. It’s a matter of degree and perhaps even necessity. From Princeton’s website somewhere, I remember reading that the FLI (First-gen, low-income) students have lower scores than the average admitted students, indicating that it’s very possible that they’re bending backwards to get these students to their campus. Like I posed earlier, are there enough academically qualified low SES students to increase their presence substantially at each of these schools to begin with? I strongly doubt it, so it may not be the lack of motivation nor the efforts on the part of these schools. I’d be happy to be corrected on this.