It is bizarre and idiosyncratic to suggest DIVERSE means something other than:
Obviously if everyone is the same, it’s not diverse. And again you intentionally ignore the other types of diversity I named as important - race, ethnicity, country of origin, etc.
Our CC is mostly white, mostly poor and for a variety of reasons not a good educational experience except in one or two areas like 2 year nursing degrees. Our state colleges less diverse also, though to a much lesser degree, especially socio-economically where a couple are very popular with rich families (though again, mostly white).
I think we all understand that state colleges are, by design, regional schools. If your region isn’t diverse (using the standard, dictionary definition of diverse, not a made up one), then the state school isn’t either. CCs have that dynamic times 50 - ours hardly attracts anyone outside the COUNTY, nevermind the rest of the state.
So yes,the school my kid attends not only has a huge endowment and great FA and small classes and awesome advising, it has a lot of kids of many races, from many different countries and parts of this one, rich and poor and in between, gay and straight, conservative and liberal, athletic and ephemeral, from private and public high schools or home schools - in short, an incredible array of study group members and friends and helpful alumni from places and situations and worlds she never had access to until she got there.
In general, public schools increase in size and enrollment catchment areas as one progresses to higher levels. This tends to increase student diversity as follows (though there can be exceptions):
elementary school < middle school < high school < community college < local/regional state university
State flagships that draw from the entire state theoretically could be more diverse, but whether that is the case depends on educational policy in the state (e.g. how affordable they are to non-local in-state lower SES students, and how likely such students can gain admission).
Obviously, some other type of college or university that has national draw can be more diverse, at least in some respects. But that also depends on the nature of the school (e.g. some private schools have national draws, but even the most nationally attractive have some variation in attractiveness by region, and most private schools are known mostly regionally). Regional diversity may also exist at a school that is not that diverse in other ways (e.g. the USMA admission process favors regional diversity, but every student there has the professional goal of officer in the Army).
And many flagships get some diversity from outside the state and internationally as well.
Not our local CC, though. Or most of our directionals.
@ucbalumnus I think your state probably has more diverse CCs than most as they often act as a feeder to CSUs and UCs and CA is very diverse anyway. This is not really the case in my state, though some regional campuses of the flagship(s) feed to it.
When my kids were applying to college our flagship was completely unaffordable. One of the not-flagships had large merit potential and D did apply there, though what came through was only like 2/3 tuition. And she never liked the school anyway, because it was too white (0-4% every group other than white), overwhelmingly wealthier kids, too preppy, too Greek, too rural…stuff like that was important to her. And clearly it is important to many kids, especially those who post here on CC, who mention concerns about this sort of thing all the time when discussing “fit”.
And from the institution’s perspective – the institution my D attended in the sense that they do not want to burden a low-income student with debt after graduation, especially since the outcome is not known. (Will the student go directly to graduate or professional school? Will the student choose to leverage the Elite degree by aiming for a relatively lucrative job right after the bachelor’s, allowing the student to comfortably pay off any residual loans – loans which often remain even for a student who has been careful with money, has participated in work-study every semester, etc.?
They do not FORBID (since someone likes caps) rejecting W/S, but some FA dept.'s discourage doing so if that means more loans, not more grants.
She could have opted for an IB/consultant-type job in NYC, etc. Many such graduates do. Instead, she chose to work in her less-well-paying field. She was able to pay off her small student loans despite a small income because she’s careful with money. And now she’s in graduate school at another Ivy and still not earning a fortune. I appreciate the prudence and acceptance of responsibility on the part of the institution.
I shouldn’t have worded my post so definitively, since there is a difference between an affirmative policy and a prohibition. I’m just aware of the message she received, and we received as a family.
Thanks to @Dolemite for the measured reply, and sorry if I misled you.
Speaking to diversity as has been alluded by some I’m not sure which of my D’s finalist would have been much more diverse than Princeton which seems weird to say to me but is a testament to the lack of diversity at top schools. Even her top public choice, Pitt isn’t that diverse. Diversity is important to my spouse and I so fortunately our children have attended diverse schools when other options were available. We chose a language immersion Charter instead of the private located 1 block from our house that many in the city desire. We stuck with the Charter instead of the magnet school many middle class families opt for in 5th/6th grade so our children readily see the lack of diversity once they get to college. I’m not sure if my D’s experience at Princeton is standard but I’d guess it’s pretty typical. Her main friend group is made up of the kids that she completed a specialized academic program with last year. So her friends are as diverse as whomever make up this group. Her roommate happens to be 1st gen and she’s much happier with her than her roommates from last year whom many would think are typical Princeton students - children of professionals - white - upper middle class - go to Eating Club events frequently, etc. The other kids in her friend group though do fit children of professionals, White/Asian, though with more of an academic focus than a social focus. In her experience the one thing she has noticed is the lack of students from the inner city and that most are suburban.
Being in Pennsylvania (where public universities are expensive offer poor in-state FA, compared to those in other states), it is no surprise that Pittsburgh has few Pell grant students (16%, same as Princeton). Students without grants or scholarships make up 46% at Pittsburgh versus 42% at Princeton, though one has to be richer to afford list price at Princeton than Pittsburgh. For race/ethnicity, Pittsburgh mostly reflects the (lack of) diversity of the state of Pennsylvania.
Definitely PA has a lot to do with it. The only other public on her list was UNC-CH(legacy) and it’s not much better but it’s an elite public. Looking at Rutgers-New Brunswick with a 29% rate is probably more representative.
Also Princeton has made a more of an effort to admit Pell grant recipients the last 2-3 years (USNWR effect?) and would think that number is about 20% now and is probably their target.
edit: and I just checked U of Del and it’s at 14% so maybe not out of whack of state flagships.
“So yes,the school my kid attends not only has a huge endowment and great FA and small classes and awesome advising, it has a lot of kids of many races, from many different countries and parts of this one, rich and poor and in between, gay and straight, conservative and liberal, athletic and ephemeral, from private and public high schools or home schools - in short, an incredible array of study group members and friends and helpful alumni from places and situations and worlds she never had access to until she got there.”
If you’re arguing a school like Amherst is going to provide a richer experience than a CC, I don’t think anyone is going to argue with you. However CCs do not just have 18-22 year olds, which Amherst exclusively has. They have young adults in their mid to late 20s, military vets, parents who want start or resume learning, among others. Most people in this country do not attend a residential college.
Coincidentally Princeton took their first transfer class(Sophomores) this year of I believe 13 students which specifically targeted student’s like that. A small number and I’m not sure their target number for the future but that would be about 1% of the student body once all classes are filled. Maybe they’ll shoot for 2% tops.
Yes, and this is a different kind of valuable diversity. One of the reasons my D is really attracted to one of the CUNYs is that is has a wide range of students, not only of different races but with different life situations, backgrounds and ages.
At Amherst, 60% of students come from the top 20% of the income distribution and 4.7% come from the bottom 20%. Even using the dictionary definition of diversity, you have 13 times as many rich kids as poor kids. That’s extremely homogeneous and non diverse from a SES perspective.
Actually Amherst does have older students, CC transfers (50% of accepted transfers come from CC) and veterans. Often the same students fit 2+ of those criteria. They’ve recruited those for years now.
However, my kid isn’t going to do a lot of hanging out with 50+ year olds like me who return to school while working. I don’t think it’s a big deal that she’s getting to know older people through her semester work and her summer internships - which she is - rather than in class.
@roethlisburger And yet, definitely more diverse SES than our CC and even our flagship (similar Pell %). And 60% from the top 20% is well into the “woe is me donut hole we are middle class” level of so many families at elite colleges.
But yes, she’s around some kids who are incredibly wealthy and connected. That’s new to her also.
All in, that SES diversity combined with race, ethnicity, geographic, international, first gen etc has been incredibly valuable and rewarding for her.
@gallentjill I was one of those older CUNY students myself. Got a great education there but really never socialized with the college-age kids. I was working full time at the same time and was definitely not there to hang out, or to enrich the lives of 18 year olds.
I did make some friends at a SUNY in the city where I took some night classes, but they were my age.
The NYT app on income for colleges does not show Amherst to be very SES diverse, your daughter’s experience notwithstanding. The median income is $158K, and 21% are from the top 1% and that percentage has been the same for a while. The campus has gotten less wealthy as whole over the years, but it’s still a wealthy campus.
@theloniusmonk it could have more SES diversity - all elite colleges could. Amherst is better than many. But rich kids come with the territory at elite schools.
Also, SES diversity was not the ONLY criteria that was considered, obviously. Geographic, racial, ethnic, international, etc were all part of her thinking, and of course class size, majors, advising, career, professor quality and so on.
But diversity - in all its forms - is definitely important to us and a lot of people, was (and is still) my point.
@theloniusmonk@OHMomof2 Amherst’s President Biddy Martin announced this weekend at her Homecoming Q&A w/alumni that 29% of the first year Class of 22 qualifies for Pell Grants (highest ever). She also advocated for “race considered” admissions and that SES based admissions alone would result in a less diverse student body than there is now.
Just wondering if anyone here is a true advocate for political diversity?
Isn’t that the arena needing the most attention at this point in history?
Or are we still mostly concerned about optics?
