@UndeservingURM I agree. Transparency would prevent those who decide that they don’t like the laws so they will do their best in their small way to undermine them. This seems to be more in vogue than it was twenty years ago. Make the data public and you’ll have no way for people to fudge it as it can be examined. Also, it can be subjected to scrutiny.
I am kind of confused. In the article, they noted that all of the information that Shen wanted was already public, but he wanted it in a different form. How is that not being transparent? If they want it in a different format, how is that the problem of the UC’s?
@ChangeTheGame I didn’t read the article closely enough to see that all info was public. Also I didn’t see the direct connection between what the article states and what @epiphany cited in his/her post. I was referring to Undeservings comment about general transparency.
I’m a she. 
@collegemomjam I just read your post regarding URMs admitted to non Ivy elites. This is just my URM (black) DD’s story from 2014, so nothing but an anecdote. SAT of 2150 (supposedly corresponds to about 1430 now.) ACT of 32. GPA of 4.5. Denied to Yale ED. Denied to Brown. Accepted to Penn (graduating next month!) Accepted to Williams, Middlebury, Tufts, Bowdoin, Amherst, Oberlin, Brandeis.
She has met many POC with similar stats and I have to be honest - this thread always raises my BP. In today’s racist climate these institutions are providing a conduit for smart, talented POC to compete in an unfair world. May they be able to continue into the future.
Are all subcategories of Latino/Hispanic equally favorable (regarding AA)? For example, would a Spanish Latino and a Mexican Latino and a Peruvian Latino all get the same admissions bump?
At colleges that do not consider race/ethnicity, the answer is yes in a trivial sense (equally favorable at zero admission bump).
Otherwise, it depends on the college, and outsiders are unlikely to know.
As @epiphany pointed out:
No, Mr. Shen, there is neither “an explicit” nor an implicit “American promise that if you work hard and play by the rules, you’ll be rewarded.”
I couldn’t agree more. This is the problem - Straight A’s and perfect SAT scores don’t guarantee you the right to go to your top choice or one of the top choices on your list. But I’m sure there are so many amazing schools out there that would accept you and you will succeed just as well in life. It’s not like there are no top schools that will take you…just maybe not one that is elite enough for your liking. That sucks, yes, but when a school only accepts 5% of applicants, you are in good company in that denial pile.
And I further agree with the most important point of “opportunity”. There are such varying levels of opportunity in this country…if we are really going to judge fairness, how could we ignore this?
As far as it relates to complete transparency, I’m not sure what’s required by law now in the various states with the various state schools, but I don’t think complete transparency is the answer, especially with the private colleges. That’s a complete can of worms. Are we going to start making companies reveal their HR files for applicants to jobs? Could you imagine if all of a sudden JP Morgan was required to release the resumes and interview notes for applicants? So that people removed from the process can decide if they have been fair? I know there are some real rules with HR and keeping applications on file and that companies are occasionally sued for discrimination (and probably with good cause), but where do we draw the line on transparency and getting the public involved in deciding how companies, colleges, etc. make all personnel decisions?
Everyone has the right to free speech and to sue if they feel they have been discriminated against. We just need to be careful how far we take this.
Race will definitely give you an advantage
@collegemomjam The problem with your analogy is that it is against the law for businesses to use racial preferences in hiring practices. Since many colleges are currently using those preferences in the acceptance of students, it opens up the need for more transparency. I do agree with your belief that no one is guaranteed elite college admissions based on a students stats because all schools should have some leeway in how they accept students. The question becomes “how much”
I have talked about this once before, but I am coming back to it now because my African American son (current HS junior with ~3.8 GPA UW and 35 ACT) told me yesterday after looking at the collegiate landscape that he is not going to even consider any top 20 schools and will only apply to HBCUs (besides in-state Georgia Tech and UGA). The political/racial divisions in the US have started to change his outlook (along with his big sister thriving in a HBCU space) and I am seeing an uptick in HBCU interest among elite African Americans students in our area. It seems kind of ironic to me that my daughter and now my son have both made a choice to lean towards HBCUs partially because their race won’t matter at all at HBCUs.
One of the topics that I have thought about a lot recently and wanted to bring up is the “worthiness factor” of URMs. While I don’t personally agree with racial preferences (or many other preferences for that matter), people need to be careful when implying that URMs are unworthy mainly because of a 4 hour test, because it doesn’t test for work ethic, determination, ability to overcome hardships, and true ingenuity. I have never heard any other preference spoken of with so many “coded words” for being unworthy. Believing that race based preferences is illegal is one thing, but implying that (past, present and future) URMs are unworthy due to elite admissions policies, crosses a line.
I find it really unfortunate @ChangeTheGame , that your highly qualified kids won’t apply to top 20 schools because they feel others might perceive them as undeserving affirmative action admits. To me, that strikes as an unfortunate casualty of affirmative action.
@hebegebe I think it is more than the perception with my son (he doesn’t care what people think including me), but he just thinks it’s where he should be next. I still would like him to have open options at this point, but I will let this play out since it is so early and things could change. But I don’t think so. I have raised my kids to believe that all that truly matters is their faith, family, friendships, and their talents (and how they share their talents, time, and treasures with the world) and they have started to realize that the world is more complex than that. The good news is that they will fine regardless of the school.
Interesting interpretation of what @ChangetheGame said, @hebegebe - he didn’t say anything about his son feeling like people would think him unqualified due to AA, only that “The political/racial divisions in the US have started to change his outlook (along with his big sister thriving in a HBCU space)”
It wasn’t based just on that one post alone. I have been following what @ChangeTheGame has said for a while, and IIRC, the daughter avoided top 20 schools for that reason, while until recently the son was still open to it. If I read too much into it, I retract what I wrote.
@hebegebe You are right. My daughter did feel exactly how you said. She hated the perception and even thought about not putting her race on any applications (but she is proud of being black so she ended up marking it). My son knows about the perception, but I have not seen it bother him before. I don’t know for sure what changed his mind.
@ChangeTheGame It suddenly occurred to me that I have a distant relative who studied dentistry at Howard. Do you think it is a good idea for non URM to study at a HBCU? What are the upsides and downsides?
Being a historically black school should not carry inherent upsides or downsides for a non-black student. Of course, prospective students need to consider all of the usual factors (net price, academic offerings, etc.) for each school. However, it appears that most non-black students reject historically black schools immediately, rather than considering them worthy of consideration under usual college selection criteria.
@Canuckguy I totally agree with the assessment of @ucbalumnus . The graduate schools at Howard tend to have a slightly larger non URM population than the undergrad school does, but I am a firm believer in visiting a school if possible to make your own judgement based on your criteria. My own experience with Non-URMs at my HBCU 20+ years ago was that they garnered a lot of respect and were immediately adopted into our brotherhood at Morehouse for making a choice to attend our institution and that they had great opportunities and experiences. I would expect nothing less from Howard. The biggest con one friend once told me dealt with people always asking him why he chose a HBCU. He got tired of answering that question over and over again.
@ChangeTheGame I completely understand your son’s concern about “political/racial divisions in the US”. I actually feel that at many of the top elite schools there is a lot of tolerance and are openminded students and that even if your son was in the minority, he would feel comfortable (although I don’t have direct experience at any of these schools, and other posters might have better information on that). But, I do get where he is coming from. When you are dealing with your own life you want to choose wisely since you are talking about where to spend four years of your life. There are tons of great schools in this country and no one should have to go somewhere they do not feel comfortable going.
My is as white as they come. Blond hair, blue eyes, fair complexion. He wants to go to school in a warmer/better climate than the northeast where we are from. We are avoiding many Southern schools because even as a white person, I think the political/racial divisions are scary realities for him that he would just rather not deal with in college (he is a liberal). This may sound like we are discriminating, but four years is too long for my son to not feel comfortable and we don’t want to take a chance.
Your son sounds like he has a tremendous amount of academic potential. I hope he finds the right place where he can grow to his full potential both academically and socially.