Why would that be the case? The strong black students who are not financially disadvantaged, such as kids of @ChangeTheGame , would compete on their merits, and many would get in.
How do we know they aren’t already doing that? There is an assumption that every black student is getting in via an AA hook.
IIRC, the data that @Data10 has shared show that being black results in a strong admissions preference, but being poor and black yields no additional preference. So the affirmative action preference is being applied to black students regardless of income.
There are not a lot of poor black students at elite colleges because they get no more of a “tip” than an African American from a multi-millionaire dollar net worth family (At least at Harvard). Wealthy black students have so many more advantages than an low SES Asian American 1st gen student, but that is not the way that it appears in elite college admissions. I don’t think anyone on this thread would complain about a wealthy high stats African American student getting into elite institutions. But why give them the same advantage as a low SES African American student? Or give those wealthy high stats African Americans a larger preference than a low SES student of any race for that matter? When @ucbalumnus posted the median family incomes at some top schools, it just shows how big of a disadvantage that low SES students have in elite admissions.
On another thread there is a nerdy, black science student (by her mom’s own description not mine lol).
She had great stats and the rest. She applied to and was accepted to Yale, MIT and Stanford.
Congrats to her. And no bone to pick at all.
However, I would ask anyone to find a similar success at all three schools for an unhooked, non development candidate- nerdy white girl.
The student’s achievements were excellent. But not a Nobel prize winner or international chess champion.
The classic above average excellent, top 10 percent of class type. But not dissimilar, actually a bit less from a stats perspective than my own Val daughter. Who was rejected at Harvard and Wl at brown. She is happily at her second choice school. So no sour grapes. Honestly. Those who know me here understand I support AA for its social utility. But changethegame and my friend Mwolf have made me think of things with a different lens.
Yes it’s hard for the black student selected at Uber elites to overcome a bit of the preference stigma. To answer a few posters back.
If we want to have an honest dialogue, that is the case. We can’t say it doesn’t matter or it’s not a factor.
If she was admitted to one - of course - sure. Two- wow. All three- well I’m thinking it’s something else.
I know it is a holistic process. But all three schools have different styles, student and institutional quirks. Or at least that’s what we’ve been led to believe. Why would one be admitted to such different models with super strong but not unique qualifications. The same qualifications most would expect to have zero or one acceptance.
Viewed through the lens of Supreme Court precedent, it makes perfect sense to give the same boost to an AA child of a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills and an AA kid growing up in Section 8 housing. The core purpose of affirmative action is to create the educational benefits of a diverse student body, not to give a boost to disadvantaged students.
@roethlisburger So do you think that’s the right approach?
Because very often, the same holistic qualities that make an applicant attractive to one elite also make the applicant attractive to the others. It’s really not all that uncommon for a strong student to be admitted to multiple elites, precisely because the process isn’t random. It doesn’t have to be tied to race or AA – it could just as easily be some other quality that stands out.
My daughter had a high school classmate who was admitted to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, This was a high school that typically would send 1 kid to an Ivy each year – certainly no more than 1 in any of the years my daughter attended. And that kid’s admission was not a surprise to anyone - academically, he was by far the strongest in that year’s graduating class. (It may be something of an advantage for LOR’s to come from a school where most students aren’t aspiring to elite schools. Makes it easier for a kid to stand out).
Ethnicity? Chinese-American.
(Which really shouldn’t surprise anyone, given the percentage of Asian students attending the elite schools – there are many more Asians than African Americans, so statistically one would expect among those with multiple admissions, there would be many Asians).
First of all, let me say that the “nerdy black girl” is certainly qualified to attend an elite. She was an NMSF, 35 ACT, 4.5 GPA, multiple APs with 5. Academically, she will be in top third of wherever she lands, and will likely thrive, not just survive.
On the other hand, there are probably 10-15 students each year from our local public high school with similar stats. Our school traditionally does well in terms of elite admissions. This was a particularly good year, with about 25 admits to the Ivies, plus around 8 more to the equivalents (Duke, MIT, Stanford, UChicago).
But how many of them get into multiple HYPSM colleges? Our school’s recent average is one every other year. And that is the difference that a strong admissions preference makes. For unhooked kids, there is a low probability of multiple HYPSM admits, whereas for the nerdy black girl it was a near certainty.
We know the backgrounds of the four kids that that have received multiple HYPSM over the past 8 years. One is a friend of my child. Two others are siblings of my kids’ friends. All three have multiple national level awards or accomplishments. As to the one we don’t know personally, well he is well known because he has won multiple international awards. That is what it takes for an unhooked kid from our high school to get multiple HYPSM admittances.
Colleges may not be as different in admissions criteria as people believe; college admissions are not independent events. While the visible qualifications for one applicant may be similar to another, the not-visible-to-outsiders qualifications (e.g. essays, recommendations, etc.) that are commonly disregarded or treated as random by outside observers may be significantly different – and an applicant whose essays and recommendations are very impressive to elite college admission readers may get admitted to multiples, while one whose essays and recommendations are not may get shut out.
Race/ethnicity and legacy are more visible to outsiders than essays and recommendations, so they are typically assumed to be the most important aspects of an applicant’s qualifications by outsiders, who typically ignore the importance of essays and recommendations. (Although obviously legacy is specific to a given college, so it would not help an applicant get multiple admissions beyond his/her legacy status college(s).)
Here are the admission factors and weights used by the USNWR top 25 universities, from http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/22085709/#Comment_22085709
Factor VI=3 I=2 C=1 NC=0 Unk Avg
HS course rigor 92.00% 4.00% 4.00% 0.00% 0.00% 2.88
HS GPA 80.00% 16.00% 4.00% 0.00% 0.00% 2.76
Standardized tests 80.00% 16.00% 4.00% 0.00% 0.00% 2.76
Class rank 48.00% 24.00% 16.00% 12.00% 0.00% 2.08
Recommendations 68.00% 20.00% 4.00% 8.00% 0.00% 2.48
Essay 76.00% 20.00% 4.00% 0.00% 0.00% 2.72
Interview 0.00% 16.00% 68.00% 16.00% 0.00% 1.00
Level of interest 0.00% 8.00% 28.00% 64.00% 0.00% 0.44
Extracurriculars 40.00% 56.00% 4.00% 0.00% 0.00% 2.36
Volunteer work 4.00% 32.00% 64.00% 0.00% 0.00% 1.40
Particular talent 44.00% 44.00% 8.00% 4.00% 0.00% 2.28
Character/personal 72.00% 16.00% 12.00% 0.00% 0.00% 2.60
First gen to college 4.00% 4.00% 92.00% 0.00% 0.00% 1.12
State residency 0.00% 0.00% 44.00% 56.00% 0.00% 0.44
Geographic residence 0.00% 0.00% 72.00% 28.00% 0.00% 0.72
Legacy 0.00% 8.00% 80.00% 12.00% 0.00% 0.96
Religion 0.00% 0.00% 8.00% 92.00% 0.00% 0.08
Race/ethnicity 0.00% 4.00% 88.00% 8.00% 0.00% 0.96
Work experience 4.00% 12.00% 80.00% 4.00% 0.00% 1.16
The most recent Stanford RD decision thread is at http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/stanford-2018/2069289-stanford-class-of-2022-rd-results-thread.html . 6 accepted students posted. All 6 accepted Stanford kids had at least 3 acceptances to highly selective colleges, including at least one Ivy acceptance. Specific acceptances are below. Obviously this is a small and biased sample group, but the point is that it’s quite common for students who are accepted to Stanford RD to also be accepted to other highly selective colleges, even if unhooked.
Non-URM
Student #1 – Accepted at Stanford, Yale, Brown, Penn, Hopkins, … ; Rejected at Princeton (+ Harvard WL)
Student #2 – Accepted at Stanford, Harvard, and Columbia; Rejected at MIT
Student #5 – Accepted at Stanford, Dartmouth, Georgetown, … ; Rejected at 6 Ivies + Chicago
Student #6 – Accepted at Stanford, Yale, Brown, and Penn; Waitlist at Harvard
URM
Student #3* – Accepted at Stanford, Harvard, and MIT.
Student #4 – Accepted, at Stanford, Brown, Penn, Columbia, … ; Rejected at Yale and Princeton (+ Harvard WL)
*“US citizen living in another country, half ashkenazi jew, half caribbean black”
As calmom mentioned, one of the reasons this relationship exists is there is a large overlap between what the different highly selective colleges are looking for, beyond just stats. It’s not just a random decision once crossing a certain stats threshold. However, I also agree that if you have a student who is likely be accepted unhooked and they also have a big hook beyond that; then the chance of multiple acceptances is even higher than typical. News stories about kids who are accepted to all Ivies + SM tend to be in this group.
Also note that I only listed RD acceptances. Many of the kids who are admitted SCEA/REA/ED during the early round only apply to one college, so they show up in stats as only having one acceptance, even though they would likely have been accepted to other highly selective colleges, had they applied. This one and done group can be quite a substantial portion of students at highly selective colleges, particularly among students applying from wealthier areas. For example, 57% of students in Harvard’s freshman survey said they were accepted during the early round, and 94% of that group say Harvard was their first choice.
I understand hpy have overlap. But mit Stanford and Yale
And now it’s because mit and Stanford and Yale are in fact looking for the same things. Contrary to the millions of posts to the contrary when the facts differ.
And sorry @Data10 I don’t find cc threads as data points in any way. Anecdotal perhaps. Inflated or erroneous. Perhaps. Fabricated. Perhaps. Not good data.
Hey if we want to say it’s nothing. What’s the point of the conversation and the thread at all.
I’m happy she was accepted and will attend Yale. That’s great. Wasn’t the point of my post.
They are not looking for exactly the same thing, but the evaluation criteria is similar enough to expect students who are accepted to one of the schools are likely to be rated very well by readers at the others. Some schools may have unique institutional needs, a unique applicant pool, or apply greater weight to specific application components/details, but the core evaluation criteria remains similar at all 3 schools.
You asked for anyone to find a similar story of success – just one anecdotal example. That thread lists several, as does every other Stanford RD decision thread I have seen. Back when I applied to colleges, I was accepted to Stanford, MIT, and multiple Ivies without hooks as well. My relative who was accepted to Stanford more recently had a similar list of additional highly selective college acceptances besides just Stanford. Many of the students I knew in my freshman dorm fit this group as well. I actually knew of only one kid in my freshman dorm who was accepted RD and did NOT have multiple acceptances to other highly selective colleges. It’s not difficult to find examples, as it’s not uncommon among RD accepted kids. Sure, some posters may be fabricating stories, but it’s not just one kid – it’s all posters in the thread, many posters in other threads and on other sites, as well as persons posters have known in real life.
If you mean the 3 schools Stanford, MIT, and Yale specifically; rather than multiple highly selective colleges in general; then the bigger issue is likely the small portion of Stanford accepted kids who also applied to MIT and Yale. More techy kids often apply to Stanford and MIT; less techy kids often apply to Stanford and Yale; but those that apply to all 3 are rare. I applied to Stanford and MIT. I didn’t apply to Yale due their relatively weak engineering program, with limited classes and majors related to my desired subfields. I did apply to other Ivies that were more on par with Stanford and MIT, in my desired fields. Similarly, nobody in the linked thread applied to the combination of Stanford, MIT, and Yale.
I think the point that @privatebanker was trying to make is that without a hook, a student needs extraordinary accomplishments to get multiple HYPSM admits today.
@Data10 You actually didn’t find several. I think it was two. And they weren’t the same case. Marginally similar.
Top tech. Stanford and who knows what they want. And Yale. All with less than 5 percent admit rates. Her scores and background was not perfect. They were great. She was not a published author or researcher of note. Just a star student.
I guess it’s just my interpretation. But I find it hard to believe without an athletic legacy or financial hook any white or Asian girl from ny mass or ca etc would get those three varied acceptances I the same year with the same stats. An urm with her stated level of achievement, absolutely in the cards.
So you all think being an urm played no role?
Like I said as you know, I support AA. And I’m glad actually. But I do think it played a major role. All three is too much.
However it doesn’t mean that much to me to fight about it.
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/California-Teen-Student-Full-Scholarships-Ivy-League-Lloyd-Chen-210351501.html is an example of someone who got admitted to HYPSM a few years ago. No apparent hooks, even had the FA anti-hook of divorced parents (presumably managed to convince them on the CSS Profile NCP waiver, or maybe the big outside scholarship he got covered it).
So while URM may help getting multiple admissions to these schools, unhooked applicants do get that as well.
@hebegebe Yes. That’s exactly right.
Isn’t that the point of this conversation. And perhaps more importantly. Is if she did achieve all this independently, which of course is theoretically possible, is it better for her if there was no potential for questions. I think that’s what some of the others are saying in this thread .
@ucbalumnus Val of Laguna high. Perfect gpa. I bet perfect 2400 or 36 act. Not a 35 and really high gpa. Gates scholar. And even a few years ago it was slightly less competitive. Didn’t even mention his ecs. And he’s a male. Slightly less competitive as well.
Not apples to apples. Yes it happens. Once.
You could make a similar genaral statement about a single unhooked acceptance, which relates to why students who are accepted to one of the schools during RD tend to be accepted to other highly selective colleges as well. Using a specific example, FERPA documents imply that Stanford uses a similar system of 1-5/6 ratings like the one described in the Harvard lawsuit; but the specific categories have different names – HS Record, Support (LORs), Non-academic, Intellectual Vitality, Self-presentation, and Reader’s Impression. They also have subratings for interview. A kid who receives high ratings in these categories and is accepted RD is likely to do well in the category ratings described in the Harvard lawsuit, or the Duke FERPA categories, or under the evaluation criteria at the vast majority of other highly selective holistic academic colleges. The categories aren’t identical, such as Stanford’s apparent greater emphasis on “intellectual vitality.” However, the core evaluation criteria is largely similar, with enough overlap to expect a noteworthy correlation in acceptance decisions.
All 4 accepted non-URM kids in the thread had at least 2 acceptances to other highly selective colleges, just as all URM accepted kids had at least 2 acceptances to other highly selective colleges. You can quibble about whether the other colleges were highly selective enough, dissimilar enough, number of additional rejections/waitlists, etc; but the general points remain. If you need a larger number of posts than just the ones in that thread, there are RD decision threads for many previous years. All I am aware of show a similar pattern, with the vast majority of RD admit kids being accepted to other highly selective colleges. In any case, you asked, for "anyone to find a similar success " – to find a similar success, not to find many…