"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

Applying to College
4947

For comparison, the demographics of US high school students in 2019 according to COE - Racial/Ethnic Enrollment in Public Schools were:

  • 47% White
  • 15% Black
  • 27% Hispanic
  • 5% Asian
  • (rounds to 0)% Pacific Islander
  • 1% American Indian / Alaska Native
  • 4% Two or more races

However, the numbers are not directly comparable with the Questbridge numbers, which appear to count multiracial students in each category. The Questbridge numbers listed above suggest a lot of multiracial students, since they add up to 137%.

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4948

Not necessarily. It may be the difference between attending a meets need college and one that is much less generous. Or between winning a large merit scholarship and not. That may force students to choose a much less “elite” college, perhaps even a local commuter college, simply to find an affordable option.

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4949

And an additional comparison to show the relative financial need for each sub-group—Pell eligibility cuts off at about $60,000 household income, Questbridge $65,000:

Percentage of undergraduates who received a Pell Grant, 2015–2016

Black 57.7
White 31.5
Hispanic 46.9
Asian 30.9

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4950

This in theory sounds great. However, if you watch the Waiting for “Superman” documentary, there are so many students whose parents are desperate for access to a good public school. Many of these students are on lotteries for years in elementary school with parents who support education by all means, but they are not fortunate enough to have access to a good public school. By this standard, I can understand colleges willing to give these students a chance even if they have high hurdles - some of them do make it.

4951

I suspect that most psychologists would agree that rushing a bright kid through high school would likely have a detrimental impact compared to whatever slight margin that student might gain in an admissions cycle. Because, quite frankly, highly motivated and intelligent URM will find landing spots in the real world 4 years (or more, if graduate work) to be unencumbered from whatever Supreme Court decisions comes down. Well qualified URM will likely be in high demand in the workforce for years to come, whether from the top of their state school or Harvard.

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4952

Sadly, all people are judged based upon identity, race, class, etc. - these are all factors that holistically paint a picture of an individual’s experience with the world. To exclude race in admissions seems inherently to exclude a part of an individual’s identity. When I was a child and driving through Missouri in a diner in a small town, my family of 5 with 3 children under the age of 8 sat down to have dinner, the entire diner literally stopped and stared for the entire time we had our meal. Since that time, I have never wanted to go to that part of our country. I have watched Black families be treated much worse than my family. To deny that experience is to deny the diversity of that perspective - which if colleges were to exclude race as a factor would create a homogenous society. Perhaps others have never visibly seen discrimination based upon race, but based upon what I have seen, it is real and the negative aspects of having to deal with a lifetime of it should be considered for diversity of perspective. My family values a diversity of perspectives, as did Einstein (a champion for civil rights). Colleges give bumps for diversity of geography, athletes, undeserved majors, etc to create a diverse class - race should also be considered. Of course, this is my personal perspective and others may disagree.

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4953

I think that you are right that the bright, motivated URM kid from class of '24 will do fine even if racial preferences are overturned, even if they wind up at their flagship state U. But there are two important issues. One is that Harvard, and some of the other Ivies, give more generous fin aid, all grants, so an URM who is in need of fin aid might really have a tough time with the loans to attend flagship state U, as opposed to the likely all grant package they’d get at an Ivy, especially Harvard. The second is that it is most definitely NOT a “slight margin” of gain in an admissions cycle right now. It’s about a 15% increase in valuation of stats, give or take a bit, in descending order of AA male, AA female, Hispanic male, Hispanic female. It’s a pretty big thumb on the scale. You can even see evidence of it on CC - if an Asian student posts perfect scores, a string of perfect APs, a gorgeous GPA, and very impressive ECs, in a chance me, the responses are, “Great stats. But remember, your chance of getting into any T20 schools, let alone tippy-top schools, is very small, so remember to choose your match and safety schools with care (since that’s likely where you’re going)”. If an AA male posts very nice, but significantly lesser stats than those, the responses are, “You could conceivably get in anywhere. Yes, choose match and safety, but you have a very good chance at any, even all of those top schools.”

Every year, there are news stories of high achieving AA males who get into EVERY Ivy, plus every tippy-top school. Sometimes there are sweet stories of all 4 quadruplet AA males all getting into Yale. There is never a story of a white or Asian applicant who has this experience - at least I’ve never seen one.

So if there are parents of AA students who are class of '24 who have tippy-top or Ivy aspirations, especially if they are in need of the great loan-free fin aid that they may offer, yes, it might make sense to apply for the '23 cycle, to take advantage of the racial preferences currently in effect.

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4954

Not 8 Ivys, but HYPSM + 4 UCs:

Of course, leaving high school early is a big shift, and not necessarily to the student’s advantage academically, socially, and in college admissions. Indeed, for many students, the cost may be greater than any possible gain from getting into a slightly more selective college (e.g. Harvard versus Cornell) that is the goal.

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4955

I have seen a white male applicant get into all 8 Ivys/Stanford and he posted on CC during his application season as well. I always wondered if he felt any stigma because some posters believed his geographic diversity (from ND) was the deciding factor in his success, despite having one of the most unbelievable resumes that I have ever heard of.

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4956

This may be “evidence” of the opinions/biases of the well-meaning posters here, but I am not sure such opinions wholly represent the reality of the admissions chances of either hypothetical student. At the very least there is very often a lot more that goes into the admissions chances of any applicant other than just race.

Again, I am not so sure that one can jump from evidence of a disparate impact to a conclusion that this is solely because of “racial preferences.” Other factors may be at least partially responsible for driving these numbers (low SES, geography, competitiveness of the high school, first generation, etc.)

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4957

Having just looked at his profile on LinkedIn and having read the CNN article, his accomplishments are similar to others I know that get into a few top Ivy+ colleges, but get rejected from others. He certainly has earned his spot at Stanford, but being from North Dakota may have helped him get in everywhere.

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4958

But how many people are able to accomplish all that the ND student has with his household income of 40-50K per year and being a 1st gen student? I have seen a couple of kids over the years accomplish similar resumes, but I can not think of one offhand that did so with fewer resources which possibly made him “one of a kind”. And those kids with similar resumes had unbelievable opportunities as well.

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4959

Have to wonder how many students at Harvard etc. have no characteristics that could cast doubt on their achievements…

  • Legacy
  • URM
  • Donor relation
  • From a very wealthy family
  • From a lower income family
  • From a middle to upper middle class family
  • From an underrepresented area
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4960

That pretty much covers everyone, doesn’t it?

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4961

In a recent year (2018), about 46% of the students at Stuyvesant HS in NYC qualified for free or reduced lunch, so many students there would be his urban equivalent. And while plenty of Stuy students have great outcomes, you would be hard pressed to find a Stuy student who runs the table like he did without one more major “tip factor”, such as recruited athlete, URM, or winning a national or international competition.

IMO, tip factors matter a great deal in choosing amongst highly qualified students. I know firsthand about one national award that is given out in January of a student’s senior year. Of the 12+ students who received this award one year who had applied to Columbia, every single one received a likely letter a few weeks later. The tip factor becomes a tangible thing that the admissions committee can point to as to why to choose student A over student B.

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4962

You just compared low income students coming from a Nationally know well “connected” high school to Ivy league schools in the largest city in the US to a low income kid from the Midwest. Household income is one thing, but I also made a point to say that compiling his resume with the “resources” he had available. I would wager that no high school in his home state could touch the “resources” available to a high achieving low income student at Stuyvesant HS. Just being in the proximity of wealth (NYC), school connections, and alumni from Stuyvesant (some examples of resources) are a totally different ballgame and I hope you would acknowledge that.

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4963

The comparisons are not perfect because each has a unique set of challenges. Martin has access to limited resources, and likely few examples of previous successful applications to help guide him. But for someone as bright as him, it’s easy to shine relative to his peers. If you don’t have to spend much time on academics, you have more time for ECs.

The students at Stuy have many things going for them. They have excellent teachers and talented guidance counselors who know how to write good recommendation letters. They also have many examples of prior students who did well with admissions to help guide them on what works and what doesn’t. And every college immediately knows Stuy and how strong its best students are.

But on the other hand, some of the Stuy students are first generation immigrants who came to this country without knowing English. They then compete to get into a high school with a very low admit rate. And only if they shine against this elite peer group are they considered for admission to the elite colleges.

As an aside, I find the “apply to all 8 Ivies” to be really strange. First, would a student be equally happy at Dartmouth, a relatively conservative college in a rural village, as they would be in Columbia, a highly liberal university in densely packed Manhattan? Second, I would think that most of these students applied early action to a HYPSM and were likely admitted. If that happened, why continue to apply to all eight, except for potential bragging rights?

4964

The underprivileged/less resourced students we are talking about here don’t have the luxury of considering ‘fit’ or where they might be happy/happiest. Many can’t go to college unless they get in to a meets full need school.

EA acceptances from these schools aren’t released until mid Dec. Students can’t wait until then to start writing essays and/or apply to the RD schools on their list which typically have early Jan deadlines.

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4965

I get that. There are other colleges that also meet full need but there seems to be a big emphasis on applying primarily to the Ivy League, plus Stanford and MIT. For example, how often do you hear about these students applying to Rice?

While essays have to be started well before the EA decision date, there is no need to actually apply to any other Ivy League school before the decision result. However, it makes perfect sense to apply for colleges that have earlier scholarship deadlines, like Vanderbilt.

4966

Asian is not a race …Indians ,Nepali’s and Pakistanis are south Asian and not of the same race

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