To the idea that it is possible to do a really good study on this, Espenshade wrote:
https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webOpportunity Cost of Admission Preferences Espenshade Chung June 2005.pdf
It’s a very difficult thing to measure, because it’s so subjective and complicated. For colleges that do admit by test/gpa/some formula, it’s a lot easier. But most elite schools do not.
@Aerophage Don’t feel like it’s a crutch. You got a 36 (!!!). This “lower achieving URMs getting into top colleges” stereotype (which is nonsense) isn’t about you because, again, you got a 36- 99.9% of whites and ORMs can’t score that high. AND you did so as a first-gen student? Wow, I don’t know where I’d be if I didn’t have my relatives’ experiences to guide me through the college application process. Respect.
You deserve all your success. Don’t let anyone tell you differently.
-lower middle class, African American female with a 1490 SAT who’s already hearing “you’ll get into X college because of AA”
@missacademy2018 Hey thanks, I really appreciate the support. I was “lucky” enough to be born in a rural-suburban SC town where the history of segregation here has made it awkward to even really mention AA or Minority Status so I don’t get that sentiment often unless I’m in these forums. Nevertheless, I wish you the best in your applications and future.
Of course there are studies that use the actual admission data.
http://www2.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf
These studies don’t analyze the EC or essays but the data is conclusive. Being a URM is a definite advantage in admission but the Asian issue is far more complex as anyone whose kids attended a school with large number of Asians will tell you. Overall the schools probably do as well as can be expected.
Lot of times we simply cannot prove or disapprove a counterfactual—we never know what would have happened if the elite colleges always used objective standards to select future leaders. Its probably true that had those standards been in place Trump, Kushner, Obama and Bushes would probably not have gone to Ivies, perhaps taken different life paths, not reaching White House… Would the country be better off if someone else were in their places? Who knows.
Now that would be an interesting thread! Who would be president without legacy/hooks?
I think Trump actually started at Fordham and then transferred to Wharton. Not sure where/when/if he had some kind of hook or connection. I’m assuming he did for Wharton, but not sure.
No hook was needed back then. I mean Buffet was able to get admitted to Columbia Business School with no connections with ease with a simple letter. Admission rates to the best schools were like 30-50%.
I have no problem going to any college or organization which is composed of by and large a single race if they are the best students or performers. It’s not as if there are no other places to meet and know other races.
@websensation there are schools like that.
You’ll never know but it doesn’t matter. You have great accomplishments and an excellent opportunity. Make the most of it.
I was admitted into Harvard, Yale (where I’ll be heading), Princeton, Stanford and Georgetown this year. Just looking at other’s profiles in comparison to some kids who got rejected, I don’t feel the least bit qualified. I’m starting to feel like I got in only because I’m black.
I had a 32 ACT and was in the top 5% class at my very average public high school. I guess I did some cool extracurricular things: two US State Dept scholarships to study Chinese abroad (I’m fluent), Pres of Culture Club, director at my local Asian heritage center, translator for immigratians from China and Taiwan at my local hospital, sports, etc. But nothing as earth shattering as even the kids who got rejected at Harvard, Yale and the like.
People are saying I only got in because I’m black and I’m starting to believe it. Is this really true? Does Affirmative Action really have that huge of an effect?
YaleWhale being a URM is a major hook that certainly increased your chances but at a school like Yale it is not nearly enough to guarantee admission. HPYS gets thousands of very qualified URM’s and you did very well to obtain admission. Being fluent in Chinese is a great EC. Your admission quest is over so forget it and don’t look back but instead make the commitment to yourself to get the most out of Yale that you can. I know Yale pretty well because my son attended and it’s a great place with so much tradition.
@YaleWhale Your interpreting at the hospitals is a valuable contribution to the community. You are making a difference in people’s lives during a stressful time.
Additionally the State Department programs are highly competitive. This is impressive.
You don’t give yourself enough credit. I am thinking you would be a very interesting person to sit next to in class.
It is a consistent social phenomenon (not just in a college context) that race/ethnicity is exaggerated in importance, because it is usually readily visible, unlike many other characteristics (particularly achieved characteristics) of someone.
Yalewhale - it’s tough to answer since there are other variables, I don’t think you got in just because you’re black. You’re an excellent applicant, but I would say yes it helped, how much who knows? It’s not like a 32 is a bad score and your ECs are very good.
Anyway, celebrate the accomplishment, enjoy the summer and make the most at Yale, good luck!
What kinda rubs me about the whole AA in college admissions is simply the fact that it’s not fixing the problem it was intended to fix as well as it should be – and perhaps there’s no getting around it.
I just graduated from a Top 20 university, and the majority of my URM friends were raised in “similar” environments as their white peers. By “similar” I mean, at the VERY least, raised in households where education was emphasized. Sure, some of them were economically disadvantaged (SOME…), but they all went to elite magnet schools/private schools, etc. They’re at least classroom-culturally similar to their white peers. The ones from poorer districts and poorer schools were exceptions, outliers. Essentially, colleges increase racial diversity but not as much cultural diversity as intended.
I honestly don’t think top schools market themselves to the VERY poor schools – i.e. schools that need them the most and are the most culturally distant from the top colleges. But that’s because the achievement gap would be too wide to close, and the college would run the risk of admitting students who were TRULY underqualified.
Affirmative action (though originally created for employment and not specifically schools) was created for access, not access for a specific segment of URMs. It didn’t matter what school you came from or socio-economic class, you were not getting in. So while we can argue if the original intent is still needed, it is in fact addressing the problem it was intended to fix.
If it is for UMich, it is not very important as affirmative act has been banned for admission purpose. However, they are trying to use other means to maintain the diversity by social status which may be somewhat linked to races.
But isn’t AA trying to address a bigger problem-- the discrimation that minorities face through their entire lives, regardless of their economic status? People get angry because their is finally an “advantage” in being a minority (but not really).
People make negative assumptions about me simply because of the fact I’m Black-- they don’t know (or care) that I’m one of the “good” ones or that I’m going to Yale.
Yes, certain minorites like a upper middle class African Americans/ Latinos might have an easier time within their limited sphere growing up, but even still, you can’t deny that they will or already do face setbacks only because of their race. It’s easy to pretend a problem isn’t one if you don’t directly deal with its effects.
Addressing the discrimination in admissions against Asians-- I agree the system isn’t perfect, but the reality is that currently, in America and also worldwide, the perception of Asians is much more rosy. They are EXPECTED to succeed both by society at large and often times by their parents. This societal expection simply isn’t present for Blacks and Lations.
In my experience I’m either a thug, or model minority-- there is no middle ground. And perception vacillates drastically depending on audience.
So yes-- while I believe AA isn’t perfect and needs work, it’s still very necessary. A black person or other historically disenfranchised minority is going to face significant push backs, regardless of economic background (Look at the Obamas-- both clearly very intelligent individuals, yet people still question Barack, Michelle and now Malia’s acceptance into the Ivy League).
That’s not to say AA shouldn’t focus more on financial situation-- maybe poorer folks should receive more of a boost regardless of race and then well off minorities only a slight one.
Yes, being African American can help in college admissions as it puts you into a category of being a URM (under-represented minority) which adds to schools’ diversity. It alone won’t get you in, but it certainly won’t hurt and likely will help.
I would certainly indicate that you are either African American or biracial (the Common App will allow you to click more than one box, but you by no means have to do so). As a person of color living in a racist society, you can feel free to claim your minority status or describe more completely how you identify.