"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

Applying to College
121

@Ali1302

Sorry dude, but I don’t believe that.
According to collegeboard’s #s, the mean for blacks is 431 with a SD of 99 in the reading section with similar stats for the other sections.
That means the z-score for a score of 700 is 2.71, which places its cumulative probability value at .9966.
That means .34% of all black test-takers scored 700 or above on the CR section.

There were a total of 210,000 black test-takers in a year, so only 714 scored 700 or above in the CR section.

Unfortunately, CB does not break down cumulative scores by race, and co-variance between reading, math and writing makes it difficult to use Bayes’ theorem to calculate cumulative probability densities, so I can only offer a strong estimate.

714 blacks score above 2100 in 1 year. Let’s double it to account for the ACT to get 1428.

Aside from the big 3, ivy leagues have 1.5x acceptance to matriculation ratio. Of the average 14,890/year student body at all ivy leagues, there are 22,335 students accepted per year to Ivy Leagues. Blacks have an average of 11% acceptance rate (As per Harvard’s data), so about 2,456 blacks get offered seats at ivy leagues.

2,456 is a lot bigger than 1,428.

My estimate is that the average SAT score for blacks is closer to 1800-1900 for Ivy Leagues.
Whites and Asians are at 2250 and 2350 respectively.
If the scores really were as close as you say they are (They aren’t, because the #s don’t add up), then colleges would have no problems releasing them to the public. It’s because the #s don’t look ‘nice’ that colleges are refusing to publicize them.

I am not for or against Affirmative Action, but lying isn’t helpful in a forum regarding college admissions. Everyone should be given all the facts so s/he can make the most out of his/her application.

122

@dana37

Except that’s not what the pro-Affirmative Action side wants.
What they want is a black kid with $1,000,000+/year salary parents getting an advantage over the poor white kid with no connections.

To the left, substance doesn’t matter. All they care about is superficial characteristics and looking “nice” to the public. Although I won’t admit it publicly, there are many cases I’ve seen where vastly inferior candidates with “hooks” were selected over superior white and Asian male candidates.
It’s not uncommon to see that only female or URM in your CS class who isn’t very good get amazing job offers from top tech companies. Happens all the time. There was this URM in my CS class who had no concept of classes and methods (Yes, I know. It’s unbelievable). I don’t even know how he passed. Maybe elite colleges have a “no fail” policy, with the lowest grade being a C.

He got job offers at google, microsoft, Apple, amazon, Blizzard, etc.
You can’t help but wonder if they were selected due to some vain “diversity” reason rather than their competence (Or lack of).

123

Oh whee, a brand new member here to rehash all the arguments, AGAIN.

1 Like
124

As a public service, I will make a couple of points that I think need to be brought up in discussions of race and elite college emissions:

  1. The issue of whether elite colleges are discriminating against Asian applicants in favor of white applicants is an entirely different question from whether URMs are receiving the benefits of affirmative action at those colleges.
  2. The question of whether URMs are receiving the benefits of affirmative action at elite colleges is a different question from whether they should be receiving it. The answer to the first question is pretty clearly yes, since the colleges say they are employing affirmative action. The answer to the second question is a matter of opinion.
125

@Mathhater

I’m aware of the statistics but as I said most African American applicants are migrants that make up a very small fraction of the AA population. African migrants tend to get higher test scores and are one of the most college educated groups in the United states. One study showed that over 60% of African Americans enrolled in Ivies were in fact black migrants. I’m aware of the mean African American scores but the mean migrant scores are in the 2150 - 2250 score ranges. Also recruited athletes get lower scores and make up a significant percentage of African American matriculants at Ivies.

Your estimate on the White and Asian SAT scores are also wrong. The gap is on average around 30-50 points so 2300-2320 for whites and 2350 Asians. This isn’t enough to give Asians any real advantage. The over representation is due to demographics in this case where Asians make up 23%-25% of all applicants to Ivy League schools therefore are overrepresented in the applicant phase by 4-5 times their demographic. This is due to high application rates to Ivies from Asian students most likely due to pressure from parents to get in to top schools. I have links and data backing up my points if you doubt anything. I’m also interested in where you get your data for the 11% African American admit rate you claim. Could you please provide a link?

126

Interestingly enough Harvard had the guts to show average test scores by race in their class of 2017 profile: http://features.thecrimson.com/2013/frosh-survey/admissions.html

The SAT scores by race:
Asians got a 2299, Whites a 2233, Hispanics a 2167 and African Americans a 2107.

As I stated the average African American matriculant gets a 2100. The Asian-White test score gap is only 66 points and not enough for an advantage in admissions.

127

The average sat score for African Americans has risen to a 2157 from 2107 according to the new class profile. Hispanics matriculants also score 2200 on average now than 2167. Asians increase slightly from 2299 to 2304 and so do whites from 2233 to 2239.

Here is a link to the Harvard Crimson class of 2018 profile: http://features.thecrimson.com/2014/freshman-survey/admissions/

Check the section for SAT scores by race. This is why I tell you most African Americans in Harvard are migrants hence the mean 2157 score.

128

This is a final update. For the class of 2019 SAT test scores gaps close even more.

African Americans for the entering class now have a mean 2218 SAT score up from 2157. Asians have a 2300 SAT score down from 2304, Whites have a 2270 SAT score up from 2239. The Asian-White gap is now exactly 30 for his entering class. Finally, Hispanics have a 2174 SAT score down from 2200. This puts everyone that acusses Harvard of bias to shame and btw legacies have a higher sat score than non-legacies, 2296 to 2237 in the class of 2018.

Source: http://features.thecrimson.com/2015/freshman-survey/makeup/

129

@Ali302, the problem with the Crimson survey is that it is self selecting and self reporting. In other words, it has no academic rigor and is therefore highly unreliable (interesting that the Harvard Student Press couldn’t get a simple set of actual figures from from the Harvard Admissions Office - which should tell you something). A more reliable approach would be to look at the Wall Street Journal article which has been fact checked and reports statistics sourced directly from Harvard Admissions, and to look at Harvard’s own data.

A case filed by a group of Asian-Americans against Harvard (http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-organizations-seek-federal-probe-of-harvard-admission-policies-1431719348) brought out that Harvard Admissions spots the average admitted African American 450 SAT points vs. Asian Americans, 310 vs. Caucasians and 180 points versus Hispanics. This suggests that, assuming the Asian Americans averaged the highest score possible (a perfect 2,400), admitted African Americans, who are presumably the best America has to offer, are on average, at best, scoring a 1,950 (placing them, at best, at the 90th percentile of all US test-takers).

Looking at Harvard’s own disclosed data supports the data provided in the lawsuit (http://oir.harvard.edu/files/huoir/files/harvard_cds_2013-14.pdf?m=1420474747). According to that data 6.7% of Harvard undergrads are African American. An SAT average of, at best, 1950 would suggest an average of roughly 650 on each section. Using Critical Reading as a proxy for all three sections, 17.9% of the student body performed between 600 and 699 and 3.5% performed between 500 and 599 and 0.1% between 400 and 499.

So, where do you think the 3.6% that are below 599 and the total of 21.5% that are below 699 are coming from? Remember, the African American population is only 6.7% of the total undergrad population at Harvard.

Unfortunately, iIt takes a lawsuit to get at the facts the universities are otherwise unwilling to provide in their breakouts. And, these broad differences between cohorts are a fact. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

As an aside, I support having student bodies at elite universities which reflect the national demographics. I simply have issue with lack of transparency, and with suspension of reality for the sake of political correctness. The longer we propagate the fiction that all cohorts within the universities have the same capabilities the longer we will perpetuate the creation of a class with the credentials but without the capability.

Harvard, and other universities, need to provide the necessary coursework/counseling to make it possible for URM students to catch up to their classmates and graduate with an equivalent capability to perform effectively in the work and graduate school environments. Please note, I have made broad generalizations. There are many exceptions who have the additional challenge of needing to prove they are the exception rather than the rule.

I write this as a URM appalled by the lack of appreciation by URMs for the substantial relaxation of admissions standards and disproportionate financial aid provided them. Frankly, part of the problem is that the misinformation propagated in blogs such as this one reduces their awareness of the largesse of all types being provided them, and of the original source of those funds.

130

@am61517

So your stating the aim of the lawsuit is too get some transparency from the university? I don’t really believe they could positively prove any real bias with insufficient evidence and going off of Asian applicants with perfect scores that get rejected. Admissions is much more complex than that when all the other subjective factors are taken into account. I’m not sure it’s fair to say that the crimson data is unreliable given the sample taken, why do you believe the data is inaccurate? Any top school would have a minority of low scoring students like athletes and donor kids so what? I personally trust the data.

The 1950 average sat score for African Americans you mention is absolute nonsense, most matriculants are African migrants that tend to do really well on their sat scores, I do believe a 2150-2250 estimate could be accurate for most African migrants that make up +60% of the class. I personally believe the lawsuit was filed not only to gain transparency but to satisfy insecure and entitled Asian Ivy rejects who’s whole purpose in life was to get into Harvard. Most of these rejects are delusional, in denial and feel entitled to a place.

131

@am61517

You are wasting your time.

Facts don’t matter to the pro-AA side. This isn’t about “fairness” or equality at all. It’s all about looking ‘nice’ to the public without any substance.

132

@Ali1302

I am excluding international students.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

The ethnicity break down counts African Americans, not African International students.

Also, the issue is not about just test scores. Why are you pro-AA people putting words in people’s mouth? Are the anti-AA arguments so strong that you have to make up arguments from the opposing side just so you have something to attack?

There is no one in this thread who is advocating using only test scores.

The problem that people have is the inclusion of race in the admissions process. That’s it. Stop bringing up fake arguments like how we want to only look at SAT scores, because no one is defending that position.

There are many people, including myself, who think that not only do Asian students have better scores and grades than URMs, but they also have far better extracurricular activities, better essays, and better accomplishments. This is backed by the Duke University study, which found that Asian candidates were superior to other candidates in all categories.
You can also look at the HOLISTIC UC system, which saw a dramatic rise in Asian population once taking race out of the admissions process.
All of these strongly suggest that superior Asian candidates are being passed for inferior URM candidates at elite institutions.

Again, if you think discrimination against Asians is great, that’s fine, but do not lie and claim the playing field is level when it isn’t. It’s clear as day the game is rigged against Asians. We should be honest about it instead of denying it and pretending everything is equal.

In terms of college admissions and employment, URMs are extremely privileged. I wish you pro-diversity freaks would just admit the truth so that we can have a constructive debate. What’s the point of debating a topic built on lies?
Oh yeah, to appease superficial people.

133

Keep in mind that Ali is a 17 year old HS student with no knowledge of statistics. There is nothing here to discuss. Being a URM is a substantial hook and a major advantage at all elite colleges except Caltech. It varies a bit from school to school and applicant (rich or poor) to applicant. But all are advantaged over unhooked white and Asian students. This is the way the current system is structured. Whether it’s fair or not is a completely different discussion that has no perfect answers.

134

@SAY

I do wish to turn this thread into a debate about the morality of racial discrimination, because that’s what we should be discussing.

Of course, we can’t have a constructive debate about it when one side is refusing to admit reality.

Also, I would add people with uncommon sexual orientations to the privilege list.

Once you come out as gay, companies and universities would offer to do “something that makes you really happy” themselves to get you to join them even if you’re not talented.

It’s not about qualification. It’s about Liberal supervisors bragging to their Liberal wealthy white neighbors about having a URM or gay guy on their team.
Then the neighbors start praising the supervisor for how “tolerant” he is and how they also hired a URM at their office. It’s like some sick masturbatory circlejerk for these clowns.
To them, it’s all about appearance, no substance at all.

I despise what our work culture has turned into.

135

@Ali1302,

  1. Any study that relies on self-selection and self-reporting is suspect - the results are often nonsensical - which in this case they clearly are since they contradict all of the hard evidence.
  2. Why do think it is that none of the elite university admissions departments are willing to break SAT/ACT and GPA data out by race? That very fact should tell you something. Isn’t it strange that the Crimson needs to conduct a survey to get at data that a simple mining of the Harvard Admissions database would produce in minutes? The pertinent question is why is Harvard Admissions refusing to share the real data unless compelled to by a legal case against the university?
  3. I have lived extensively in Africa (and Europe and Asia), and have served as a college admissions advisor to students applying from Africa to elite US universities. An African applying to a US university with a standardized test score that approaches the 25th percentile is highly desirable. I am at a loss as to where you are coming up with the fiction that African migrants are highly educated relative to African Americans. The opposite is more likely to be true.
  4. Admissions is actually fairly simple and straightforward. What is more complicated is the positioning required to avoid litigation related to the admissions process. “Affirmative Action” has become "Holistic Admissions,"and may evolve again as new strategies are derived to protect the right of a university to pursue the virtuous objective of creating a racially and economically diverse student body.
  5. At a university such as Harvard, legacies actually tend to perform very well on standardized tests relative to other cohorts, and there are very few donor admits that are below the 25th percentile. Yes, there are athletes who benefit, but there is a sizable overlap between the athlete pool and the African-American pool, and there is a strict formula governing the number of admits that wouldn’t qualify based on the general admissions process. In other words most athletes at Harvard are roughly equivalent to a typical admit but get the admissions decision tipped in their direction because they are also a recruited athlete.

@Ali1302 I don’t know why you insist on refuting reality, but it doesn’t change the facts put on the table by The Wall Street Journal, Harvard itself and @MathHater, among others. Reality is reality, and political correctness may obfuscate it, but can’t change it.

136

am61517 Ali is a HS student. She does not have the background to discuss the statistics or data from the studies. Go back and look at Ali’s answers and you will see a complete lack of understanding of even basic statistics. As for athletic admissions at Harvard you are very much underestimating the advantages of being a recruited athlete. Being a recruited athlete is the best hook and better than being a URM. This is a fact. I’m not say most Harvard athletes aren’t good students but rather they had little to no chance of admission without their athletic hook. MathHater I understand your position but I don’t think it’s productive. This is a site that exists to help students learn about admission to colleges. I’m not saying you are wrong but that is a complex sociology discussion that while interesting will provide no help to applicants to elite colleges.

137

@Ali1302, one additional point, I didn’t state the the “aim of the lawsuit is too get some transparency from the university.” The lawsuit had to do with Asians seeking to have the admissions criteria used by Harvard Admissions changed. A peripheral benefit of the lawsuit was that Harvard Admissions was compelled to release otherwise unavailable hard evidence related to standardized test scores of students by ethnic group.

138

@am61517

But why do Asians feel they have to be treated fairly by Harvard?
Let Harvard do their thing and discriminate against who they want. They’re not a public institution, after all.

139

@SAY

I am just advising minorities to act ethically in this matter like I have.

140

@MathHater

In the same Duke study it showed that about 1/3rd of Black students at Duke come from low income families. You are looking at race as the #1 factor when there are other things that can influence an admissions decision. Black students probably aren’t as well-off as others which may explain a gap in scores. It’s true to some extent at Yale. I doubt Harvard would be all that different.

“But why do Asian students have higher scores than White students when they’re not as well-off?”
White students are more likely to be athletes, faculty-brats, legacies, donors, etc. Not to mention major. According to the Collegeboard, Asians are more likely than others to major in STEM, and STEM majors have higher test scores across the board.

IDK where you got your info from, but the UC System didn’t magically go from 19% Asian to 40+% Asian after Prop 209. In 1994, Asian students were 33% of UC System students. In 1998, that number was…36%. Berkeley’s numbers didn’t change nearly as much as people say they did. There were a lot of Asians there before Prop 209 and there are a lot there now. Considering Berkeley is 14% Hispanic now, UCLA is 20% Hispanic, and there are other UCs with higher percentages, the changes in the demographics of the UC System probably reflect changes in state demographics more than anything.

If AA is the #1 factor in a school’s demographics, then how come the University of Michigan, which is ranked 29th and did away with AA years ago only 13% Asian?

If you want sources I can link you to some.