Another controversy is brewing in NYC:
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/06/04/new-york-city-mayor-sets-new-debate-testing-admissions-and-diversity
^New debate same as the old debate. I have a close relative, URM 1st gen American as well as 1st-gen for college, who grew up poor and attended a top high school in NYC decades ago. He had a mom who valued education (even though she was only school-educated to 3rd gr herself), a test prep book from the library, and natural intelligence/giftedness. (Plus, there were plenty of afternoons spent indoors reading when going outside to play wasn’t feasible.) He doesn’t think the testing is unfair.
Since NYCDoE runs the K-12 schools, looks like it needs to look at itself in terms of whether the K-8 schools are unequal and/or low quality for some/many students, resulting in the test score disparities for entrance to the competitive high schools.
I agree with @ucbalumnus. Maybe he should focus on fixing the thousands of schools that educate over a million students.
That said, I do have problems with admissions based only on the results of 1 test.
Does anyone know if they are considering (or maybe they do already?) applying some Affirmative Action type admissions standards to these NYC top high schools? So the test results would still count, but could be offset by other factors (such as race or socio-economic factors?). I’m sure that would open a can of worms but maybe would give them a little more control or ability to admit a more diverse class that represents the city residents better?
Asians have to score 140 points higher than whites to gain admission to selective colleges.
the racial makeup of Stuyvesant High School underscores the systematic racist admission policies of selective colleges against Asians.
Below is a breakdown of Stuyvesant’s class by race where there is no bias. You get the score you’re in… you don’t you’re out.
Asians make up 73% of the class. De Blasio’s answer is to lower the bar by scrapping the test entirely which will increase black and hispanic enrollement but whites as well. Sort of like having quotas for 5 ft Asian guys in the NBA who can’t jump:) in the name of diversity of course:)
the one great thing about Stuyvesant is you looked at a Stuy student and you knew they got there on merit… A Stuy student was smart first and foremost… who happened to be white, black… hispanic… etc.
now it’s goiing to be because you’re white, black or hispanic.
Stuyvesant High School
School Level
HIGH SCHOOL 3,319 100%
Gender
Male 1,888 56.88%
Female 1,430 43.09%
Ethnicity
HISPANIC 93 2.8%
AMERICAN INDIAN OR ALASKAN NATIVE 13 0.39%
ASIAN 2,421 72.94%
NATIVE HAWAIIAN OR OTHER PACIFIC ISLANDER 35 1.05%
BLACK 23 0.69%
WHITE 615 18.53%
MULTI-RACIAL 91 2.74%
Not Reported 28 0.84%
@sbballer I’m honestly conflicted about this issue. No college in the US admits based on the result of one high stakes test. There is something inherently unfair about it. Even MIT and CalTech don’t do it. They may rely heavily on the tests but they allow a student a chance to take it again, AND they look at grades and achievements as well. I understand the feeling that “holistic” admissions is code for racism and I have a lot of sympathy for that too. There really should be some middle ground.
Maybe the applications should remove all identifying questions (Including NAME). If they want to give a boost to URM, that could still be included, but for every other purpose, they should admit truly blind. Then we would know for sure if holistic means holistic or racist.
My question would be what does Stuyvesant offer that makes it so appealing to some? I say leave it alone and change another HS to offer similar and make that one holistic admission.
This is a very tricky situation. How hard is the test and to kids start studying when they are really young?
Maybe someone could start exposing more kids to ways to prep for it from an early age? Offer the prep classes at the elementary level, and see which kids are motivated enough to actually start preparing??
I know nothing about these test or these high schools, but are there kids hiring tutors from a young age to help them hit the score they need?
There is the question of “access” and then also “motivation”. I agree it should be more than just the test that gets you in.
It is a misconception that test prep beyond familiarizing with the format would have a dramatic impact on test score. Studies have shown test preps raised scores only marginally.
The SHSAT is out of 800 points total. 400 for language, 400 for quantitative. I’m not certain, but I don’t think that anyone has ever gotten a perfect score (I could be wrong, though). The test is designed to rank order tens of thousands of kids, so it has to be tough.
Stuyvesant is the most desirable of the specialized high schools, and therefore has the highest cutoff score. Typically, the cutoff will be in the mid-500s. So, there will be accepted kids with scores from, say 550, all the way up through 750 or so. Let that sink in a little. Unlike a test like the SAT or ACT, which is designed to mask differences in ability towards the top, the SHSAT seeks to identify them.
The SHSAT is a very thinly-veiled group-administered intelligence test. Preparation will have very limited value. That being said, there have been many programs over the years offering extensive test prep for free to any poor kid, and many programs for black and Hispanic kids (without regard to income). The programs have never made any difference.
This is a very old debate over traditional minority representation at the specialized high schools - it’s been going on for more than 50 years. People who are interested can look at these two very good articles (almost twenty years apart). There are many others.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/plot-against-merit-13667.html
https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-gotham%E2%80%99s-elite-high-schools-escaped-leveller%E2%80%99s-ax-12276.html
A few non-obvious things help explain the enormous racial disparities. First, the SHSAT is a good test, but it does have an inherent limitation. In each section, the “last questions” are worth a tremendous amount. So, a raw score of 48 out of 50 might be worth 330/400, a 49 garners a 350, while a 50 will get a 400. (Ditto for the language section.) See, e.g., http://static1.squarespace.com/static/51c38f08e4b0895fa6dcd421/t/56244dafe4b08ff533f0172a/1445219759369/SHSAT+SCORE+CONVERSION.pdf. The reason for this sort of curve is to identify and reward those kids who are “off the chart.” There’s a reason that the NYC specialized high schools have produced more Nobel Prize winners than almost all countries. Today, the level of math ability is so high - especially among Asian students - that an argument can be made that the SHSAT is favoring candidates who are too “lopsided.” (A perfect on the math lets you be very average in language and still make the cutoff.) Although the math/logic on the SHSAT is inherently tough, the test will be fairly easy for kids who can perform at the highest levels in middle school math competitions. And there are thousands of those kids, many Asian.
Second, many wealthy white and even traditional minority parents do not want to subject their high performing kids to the competition at these schools. They no longer need to. The schools have always been lower- to middle-class places were the unconnected and unprivileged could shine. Even today, something like 60% at Bronx Science (and about 40% at Stuyvesant) qualify for free or reduced price lunch. I’ve got many friends who went to Science or Stuyvesant, and not a single one of them who still lives in NYC considered the schools for their kids.
Last, traditional minority representation is even lower than it could be today because black and Hispanic students who are even near to the cutoff for Stuyvesant will find themselves courted by private schools to a degree that is hard to convey to people not familiar with the affirmative action landscape. Wealthy, qualified minority kids will not want to face the competition, while poor, qualified minority kids will find that their need for financial aid will not be a deterrent anywhere.
Oh, and there used to be affirmative action at Bronx Science in the 1980s (probably at Stuyvesant as well, but I only knew Science) and it was a disaster. They basically had to create a separate program within the school, and even then the dropout rates were horrendous. Notably, back then Science was more prestigious than Stuyvesant, but things steadily changed with the fortunes of Manhattan and the new building for Stuyvesant after the mid-90s.
Doesn’t this contradict your assertion that test prep will only marginally help on this test? The kids who perform at the highest levels on math competitions are heavily prepared for those from a very young age. I find it extremely hard to believe that the intense prep these kids go through has little impact on their scores.
Not really, @gallantjill. If you have a kid involved in math competitions at a high level, one of the first things you realize is that certain kids are just born that way. You see kids race through 8 years of elementary math curriculum, in a year or two, and then just swallow up half the high school curriculum before they are 10 or 11. The internet has really changed the equation between formal preparation versus ability. Note that I said the SHSAT math will be easy for kids who can perform at the highest levels in the middle school competitions. Although kids of course prep, it’s wrong to think that prep is what gets you to the highest levels. If only it were that easy… It’s humbling, that’s for sure!
So I wonder how the Asian grads from these top three high schools do with college admissions compared with the creme of the crop blacks and hispanics that didn’t get into one of these three high schools but still graduated towards the top of their classes at their respective high schools??? Anyone know? That might be an interesting study.
^Here are some data from Stuy, knock yourself out and have fun:
http://stuy.referata.com/wiki/College_Decisions_Class_of_2017
http://stuy.referata.com/wiki/College_Decisions_Class_of_2016
I attended BxSci back in the dark ages when we were better than Stuy! I took the exam in 9th grade just to get out of J.H.S. for the day 
and had no intention of going there. My neighbor who was a real genius convinced me to go.
My math scores were always pretty close to perfect, but English was just average. I never realized that is how I got in and why my overall SATs were not great. I don’t remember studying for those either. I guess I had the spike!
I think a compromise might be to take the top kid from each middle school, offer them admission, and leave the rest of the open spots to the exam. Thee problem is how to define the top kid in each school? will it be the well behaved good student with straight As in a bad school or will it be the true 99.9% math type kid with a bunch of Bs and Cs who could score high in the SSHAT.
You better give those smart but unprepared kids extra help or they will get absolutely crushed in math and science classes. I’m pretty sure 10 grade math covered the regular curriculum in a few months and we just did our own thing the rest of the year.
I have no vested interest in NYC schools anymore, but still read the News, Post, and Times so I keep up with events in the city.
@jzducol thanks, that was interesting. Lots and lots of students going to top schools.
What I was getting at, and this is probably impossible to know, was if the Asians that are supposedly taking all of the spots are still at a disadvantage compared with some URM’s in college admissions. We would of course need to know where the top URM’s ended up that didn’t get into one of the top three NYC high schools…and all of those kids that are going to NYU and Chicago on the lists you sent, were the Asians in particular rejected from Ivies that they may have gotten in to otherwise if they weren’t Asian??
We obviously will never know, but I know the topic of Asians being held to an higher standard in college admissions (at many of the top schools) is a hot topic.
At the end of the day, the really bright and hardworking kids will probably land on their feet, no matter which high school or college they go to.
@collegemomjam , part of the data you are looking for is part of the discovery process in the suit against Harvard. From the NYT:
"Harvard’s class of 2021 is 14.6 percent African-American, 22.2 percent Asian-American, 11.6 percent Hispanic and 2.5 percent Native American or Pacific Islander, according to data on the university’s website.
For the Harvard case, initially filed in 2014, Mr. Blum said, the federal court in Boston has allowed the plaintiffs to demand records from four highly competitive high schools with large numbers of Asian-American students: Stuyvesant High School in New York; Monta Vista High School in the Silicon Valley city of Cupertino; Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, Va.; and the Boston Latin School."
The goal is to look at whether students with comparable qualifications have different odds of admission that could be correlated with race and how stereotypes influence the process. A Princeton study found that students who identify as Asian need to score 140 points higher on the SAT than whites to have the same chance of admission to private colleges, a difference some have called “the Asian tax.”
Here is the link, but you may hit a paywall: https://nyti.ms/2umeihG
@BKSquared thanks for that.
One of my questions, which is impossible to answer, is whether the URM’s that were denied admission to these top 3 NYC schools were able to make up for it by checking a different box that gave them a boost on their college applications than the Asians that got the spots at the more desirable high schools.
If these NYC high schools are so strong, which I imagine they are, you would think the Asians that were accepted benefited from the better education (which helped them on their SATs), and the URM’s obviously did NOT benefit from the better education because they were at “lesser” high schools (maybe, unless some of them got into privates like Horace Mann or something). So while the Asians may have been held to a different standard in college admissions, they may have had stronger applications that made up for this because they were the ones that got into the better schools.
So in some ways does the “score only” criteria for these high schools neutralize the boost the URM’s get/the higher standards the Asians are held to late in the college admissions process?
That’s what I’m getting at. Sorry if I’m not clear!
Regardless, seems as though the kids at these high schools are top notch. Good for them. They deserve to do well.
It makes me sad and a bit angry that they are thinking of eliminating the SHSATs.
When examining specialized high schools in NY, meritocracy alone has created such fantastic schools. (And of course, there are many other schools that are fantastic without being merit-based, but since we’re on the topic of specialized high schools right now…)
The students make the school what it is, the school does not make the student. The reason Stuy is a great school is because entry is based on meritocracy. Score enough on the test ==> get admitted. No interviews, gpa, resumes, race considerations, donation considerations, etc. This goes to prove what entry by exams can achieve. Not saying all schools should do this, and not all students need that type of environment. It’s not the best school for all kids, nor the best model. A student there really needs to be independent, as there is hardly any handholding because it is a public school. Do I wish my son would have attended a well-resourced private school, however? Maybe, for all that the private schools imply. But he went to a public school instead. It seemed right at that moment in time. I am an advocate of education for all income levels, but if you are wealthy choose to go to Stuy, there will be no hobnobbing with the rich and famous nor the upper class, and if you were brought up in a lower economic status, that is a whole other discussion. But we do not need to dismantle an already thriving institution by watering it down.
If they begin to water down the entrance exams or eliminate it, I’m guessing over the years, it will no longer be the same school(s) because different types of students will be attending. I am in no way talking about race. We should bring the kids up to the highest level, not bring our educational level down.
Don’t like test-taking schools? Need an interview, or a school that considers middle school gpa, or extracurricular, or leadership abilities? then don’t apply to Stuy or other specialized schools, apply elsewhere, as there are plenty of those high schools, but there are hardly any schools like Stuy.
Another thing, when people complain that it’s not fair that the specialized HS kids ‘prepped’ for the exams, that is also ridiculous. In addition to the many independent free prep materials, Stuy themselves set up prep centers in neighborhoods that they wished to recruit from. No one showed up. The majority of Stuy kids are eligible for free lunch, and did not have resources to pay for prepping. The kids studied from the myriad of free resources available. And, god forbid, some kids that did get in to the school had the nerve to spend time and effort to ‘prep’ and ‘study!’ Who’d want ‘those’ kinds of students?!
Pardon the rant, but it angers me when politicians use our educational system for political gain, without regard to how it would benefit us as a society. It saddens me that some administrators/politicians don’t understand the educational system. They seem to think that it is the school that is Almighty, but I believe it is the students who make the school what it is.
Whether it is intellect, athletics, or the arts, let us bring our kids up to the highest level they are able/want to achieve. Let our kids have something to aspire to.
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