"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 13

Applying to College
230

I think we have to be clear what this means. We are talking about Race based Affirmative Action (AA), but I expect most preferences (some of which are a part of AA) used in admissions decisions by colleges (SES status, gender, legacy, athletes, children of employees, and donor class) to remain. I have always believed that Race-based admissions were initially done as a noble undertaking that has possibly caused as many issues as they solved (academic inequality in America across the best and worst school districts today is as bad as it has ever been and I believe that part of that disconnect is that we have as many POC at top schools than ever). I also believe that diversity of all types (SES, geographical, of thought, etc.) is an asset in college classrooms. But using race to make that distinction has always divided us more than brought us together.

My prediction of what will happen with the SCOTUS is that a narrow decision that will be made for both the UNC and Harvard decision against AA that will cause certain loopholes to develop that will lower (but not crater) the percentages of POC at “elite” institutions. A state like North Carolina could easily guarantee admission to UNC the same way that UT-Austin does (This is a great example of a way to diversify without explicitly using race). Anything short of making a definitive ruling (race blind everywhere) is going to have a loophole that can be exploited.

3 Likes
231

It must be nice to wait for the day when one’s race does not influence their outcomes in the college admissions process! For myself, I am waiting for the day when one’s race does not affect their life. I am going to guess this would be the case for most African-Americans who would gladly give up any perceived advantage to get into Harvard if it means they could avoid getting wrongfully stopped by the police/killed, followed in a store, called the n-word on campus, work, etc., miss out on opportunities to get a job, promoted, etc. I could go on…
Something tells me those who don’t know what it is like to live as a black person would never trade places with a black person just to get into Harvard.

26 Likes
232

Someone who pretended to be Black to get into medical school found out the hard way about the increased likelihood of unfavorable racial profiling.

4 Likes
233

@NYPopBear

What you’re saying is illegal and has been for decades. If schools are implementing affirmative action to address past and present discrimination, that shouldn’t be allowed at all.

And African-Americans aren’t the only ethnic group in America. Hispanics also get massive preferences if we look at the lawsuit data and I can’t see why a dark-skinned Indian dude would get no boost while a light-skinned Hispanic would.

Are you seriously suggesting that light-skinned Hispanic somehow faces more discrimination in America? That’s the problem I have with affirmative action - you’re trying to quantify discrimination and admissions officers know that ‘diversity is the legal argument’ but the real reason is to address past and present discrimination (read any article by Drew Faust or Lee Bollinger in the Atlantic and they’ll talk about African-Americans being discriminated and disadvantaged, not the fact that they should only be arguing for AA presence based on diversity).

And I know a few light-skinned African-Americans who went to Harvard (in fact, many African-Americans I know who went to prestigious schools are the descendants of African immigrants if you actually talk to them). Do they really face more discrimination in America than a dark-skinned Indian guy? (the guy linked in the article above).

miss out on opportunities to get a job,

I work as an equity analyst at a big asset management firm (Fidelity, Wellington etc.) and I can assure you that African-Americans, women and underrepresented minorities get a separate pipeline into being analysts and MBA analysts.

They’re not missing out on opportunities if they apply to any big corporate organization these days. While I’m a critic of corporate diversity policies, I know my firm and other firms will go out of their way to hire underrepresented minorities if they’re remotely qualified.

The lawsuit data showed there were so few qualified African-Americans in the applicant pool that if you were in the top 3-4 deciles, you had a near 50% chance of being accepted if you were African-American and those in the top decile had a 56% chance of being accepted.

There are many middle-class and upper-middle-class African-Americans in this country - why should their kids who can easily get good scores get a ‘tip’ (it’s not a tip as opposed to a sledge hammer according to the lawsuit data).

African-Americans don’t somehow have these miraculous personalities that Asian-Americans somehow lack because you look at the alumni ratings and there was a much smaller difference among applicants. If you look at extracurricular ratings, Asians were the strongest applicants on those as well.

Rant over.

I hate when people try to use past and present discrimination as a justification for more discrimination in my eyes. It’s illegal to justify on those grounds but it’s also morally wrong. This discussion gets heated but it’s inevitable when race is so divisive.

1 Like
234

Yes, I agree with your prediction.

But the battle is far from over as Blum makes it clear. This is only the beginning as he says - he makes the case that this is more than just college admissions but everything from environmental laws that single out helping marginalized communities to corporate board diversity regulations. Corporations, schools and states are going to be much more hesitant to look at race when they have the threat of being sued.

It will be a narrow ruling but schools will undoubtedly abuse loopholes and this gets fully decided later on.

And nobody is arguing over UNC being able to use a 10% rule - I’ve got no issue with a 10% rule. But again, I don’t think that many people have state schools in mind when they think of affirmative action being over. They’re thinking of Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Princeton etc, not UNC or other state school.

Harvard and top elite schools can’t use a 10% rule as their class would be way too big which means they’re going to have to find loopholes like getting applicants to write diversity statements, dropping test scores etc.

235

I just read this and it was interesting, especially the part about him dealing with the burdens of being perceived as a black man–just goes to show you that he didn’t anticipate these burdens that came along with that benefit when he checked the “black” box.

2 Likes
236

I don’t think this Court will issue a narrow ruling. I expect elite colleges will find ways to achieve their diversity aims; they are already in the planning stages. If Asians, who, in my opinion, have allowed themselves to be Blum’s pawn, think they’ll suddenly get 50%+ of the seats at top schools like what happened in California, I think they will be very disappointed.

2 Likes
237

What exactly did I say was illegal?

My take on how affirmative action will play out after the SC ruling dismantles it will be the following- most elite schools will remain test optional and URMs who do well on tests will submit their scores just like my daughter did when she applied this year. I know the prevailing assumption will be TO will only benefit URMs but I know of two Caucasian kids in previous years who have benefitted by applying TO in previous admissions cycles (ivy acceptances). What I find remarkable in all these affirmative action discussions is the fact that no one seems to have a problem when “Jerome” is playing football or basketball for these schools. It is only an issue when he doesn’t have a basketball or football in his hand while walking the campus. I read Jeffrey Selingo’s book, Who Gets In and Why and it was a fascinating read. Basketball/Football recruits make up a small percentage of athletes on campus and as a result, fill up relatively only a small number of slots for recruited athletes on a typical campus.

At the end of the day, we all know these elite schools could fill entire freshmen classes 2-3 x over with applicants with perfect gpas and SATs if desired and it seems quite clear that this is not how they would like to form their student bodies.

238

Bingo! Blum has done a masterful job pitting minorities against each other! Divide and conquer in action. The vast majority of slots at these schools will still be reserved for affluent white families according to Selingo’s book.

4 Likes
239

The thing you essentially implied about African-Americans being discriminated against in America being a justification for affirmative action. That’s not allowed thanks to Justice Powell in Bakke.

People of all races will benefit but to pretend that it won’t help URMs disproportionately is laughable. We can point to examples of where it helped certain people of all ethnic groups but universities aren’t dumb - they know why they’re dropping test scores.

I read a research paper that looks at college admissions data during the few TO cycles and URMs are disproportionately the ones not submitting test scores. It also makes sense considering URMs are much weaker academically on test scores both across the country and in applicant pools (over 60% of African-Americans were in the bottom two academic deciles).

Only 17% of Hispanic applicants and 9% of African-American applicants to Harvard got a 2 or 1 on their academic ranking. The reality is, being TO massively benefits Hispanic and African-Americans.

have a problem when “Jerome” is playing football or basketball for these schools. It is only an issue when he doesn’t have a basketball or football in his hand while walking the campus.

People have a problem when ‘Jerome’ was judged with different standards than ‘Brett.’

Nobody has a problem with ‘Jerome’ if he was judged with the same standards as Brett but there are so, so few African-American Male applicants in Harvard’s admissions pool that a 34+ ACT scoring African-American Male had a 60+% chance of admittance (they gave African-American men an even larger boost than African-American women).

Harvard originally wanted a student body with much fewer Jewish people. Does that mean it’s acceptable just because it’s what the university desired?

240

I don’t think this Court will issue a narrow ruling. I expect elite colleges will find ways to achieve their diversity aims; they are already in the planning stages. If Asians, who, in my opinion, have allowed themselves to be Blum’s pawn, think they’ll suddenly get 50%+ of the seats at top schools like what happened in California, I think they will be very disappointed

If Harvard or any elite school’s racial demographics look anything close to representative of America with none of the economic diversity, it will be a signal that race is being used as a factor and people will be watching like hawks across the country.

241

I agree that Harvard is ready for a ruling against race as a tip in admissions. What I am not sure about is why they have not preemptively moved to some of those alternatives if they could keep its demographics at similar numbers and my only assumption is that the alternatives don’t do as good of a job.

242

There are no racial alternatives that Harvard finds feasible compared with affirmative action. Affirmative action allows them to admit wealthier African-Americans/Hispanics who I suspect find it much easier to fit in culturally than lower-income African-Americans/Hispanics/other Americans.

Putting a strong enough ‘boost’ for socio-economics that it matches the current Harvard demographics would be such a strong boost that 82% of Harvard’s class would be economically flagged as ‘disadvantaged’ compared with now. Low-income African-Americans and Hispanics still score worse than low-income Asian-Americans and White Americans which is why the boost would need to be massive (David Card published his findings).

The alternatives would result in a much more ‘economically disadvantaged’ class than Harvard’s current system - Harvard argues that they have limited financial aid but I suspect Harvard would no longer be Harvard if 82% of kids were from lower-income backgrounds. Harvard also claims that this class would be much weaker than their current class but the supreme court justices were very skeptical of this argument.

243

Perhaps you are listening too much to Blum’s podcast but “race” is permitted as one of MANY factors for a college to consider when it is evaluating applicants. I am not going to get into the history/reasons for affirmative action here.

1 Like
244

Yes, but for 45% of African-Americans and Hispanics it was a determinative factor i.e. it was the factor. It’s so disingenuous when people say it’s one of many factors when David Card (Harvard’s expert) shows that race is still a massive, massive factor.

It’s not a small tip, it’s a massive tip. Just google ‘admissions by academic index’ and you’ll see that African-Americans/Hispanics were given massive tips if they were remotely qualified. Furthermore, African-Americans and Hispanics had weaker extracurriculars than Asians/Whites so without the boost, Harvard projects:

6% of the class would be African-American and 9% of the class would be Hispanic. Compare that to the near 30% URM representation Harvard has in its current class, the number of African-Americans and Hispanics would shrink by 50% with no race-based tip.

And of course race is permitted as many factors (permitted Harvard has no alternatives which is another reason the justices were skeptical because as you mention, Harvard still admits legacy and donor kids). That’s the reason it’s being fought in the Supreme Court because many Americans of all colors don’t believe race should be a factor in the slightest.

245

Or the alternative is more costly or labor intensive while checking off the race box on apps is low maintenance. However an alternative option probably should be considered to make things more fair.

1 Like
246

One thing that I want to always look at when talking about college admissions is what a student has overcome to get to the application pool of top schools. I think that what gets lost in these discussions is comparing kids who have in some cases had everything placed in front of them including having the resources to be a part of great extra-curriculars being compared with kids who have had made the most of every opportunity and created some along the way while overcome immense obstacles in some cases. It is why just looking at the academic deciles alone do not work in my humble opinion. There is some “art” along with science when picking a class of students and I am glad that I am not the one who makes those choices because there will always be “losers”.

10 Likes
247

I am not one to attempt to have the last word but I think we should just agree to disagree here. I am not going to change your mind and you certainly will not change mine.

Speaking as an African-American man in this country, I can tell you it is exhausting that there is not a day that goes by without confronting race or issues of race. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. I certainly don’t consume myself with this stuff but since I am an avid reader and most often these stories are unavoidable – also, I am not trying to make myself out like some sort of perennial victim (I am certainly blessed). I just learned of an awful incident at Georgetown where a black female student was called the n-word by a classmate and the university apparently is trying to sweep it under the rug.

You say race was the determinative factor in admissions for certain folks, well, heck, you can’t pick up a newspaper in America any day of the week without coming across a horrible racist incident. All forms of racism and bigotry suck and are abhorrent to a just society, whether it is hatred to our Asian brothers and sisters to members of the LGBT community, etc. Ideally, there will be no need for affirmative action. The problem is “affirmative action” is redefined in many instances (i.e., the applicant who is the child of a faculty member, the job applicant who happens to be the son of the CEO or his friend, etc.).

10 Likes
248

Sure.

There’s no doubt that there are kids in America with obstacles in front of them.

A kid in rural Kentucky or urban Detroit probably has many more obstacles in front of them than a kid who goes to Exeter.

But Harvard has a disproportionately wealthy class. The median income was $170,000 and according to SFFA’s expert, the tip given for being disadvantaged was much smaller than the tip for being African-American.

And African-American/Hispanic kids who go to schools like Harvard overwhelmingly are the kids of college-educated professionals, not the kids who have obstacles in front of them.

Something like 70+% of Harvard African-Americans came from households that had an income higher than the median American household and 70+% had a degree. It was quite shocking as affirmative action was benefiting wealthier African-Americans, not poor ones.

I am absolutely in favor of income-based affirmative action, just not race because there are privileged and disadvantaged people of all races.

1 Like
249

Exactly! I am certain that most high schools in inner city neighborhoods don’t offer robotic or Olympiad teams, debate teams, etc. Out of curiosity I just checked how many APs are offered at my old high school and only 8 are offered, and of these three were in art or research.

There is no level playing field and kids going to underfunded schools and coming from disadvantaged situations shouldn’t be penalized on top of what they have to endure.

4 Likes