<p>I think that part of the loss of sleep associated with AP classes in some districts is tied to over-the-top efforts to ensure that all of the students get 5’s on the AP exam. For example, in my nephew’s district, students taking AP Calc BC had to show up at 7 am everyday, so that two periods could be devoted to Calc. This is not needed, if the class is taught reasonably well and the students have been sensibly prepared for AP classes.</p>
<p>JHS is fortunate to live in the area where he lives (at least as far as the quality of schooling is concerned). Around here, we have nothing like the private-school option that he describes.</p>
<h1>20 ClassicRockerDad, it depends (the answer to almost any question regarding educational issues, it seems). At many colleges, the intro psych course wouldn’t be with 250 kids in a huge lecture hall. And many college professors resent having the College Board (a for-profit, non-accredited, non-school) decide what college texts and curricula should be, so they don’t use the same books and scope/sequence charts as the APs.</h1>
<p>APs will only be valuable as long as colleges are convinced that they mean something. They are now a dime a dozen and there is no consistency in their delivery. The scoring can also be wacky. I foresee a decline in their relative importance.</p>
<p>A question would be, what 4-5 APs would high school students take every year?</p>
<p>Seems that the norm for AP should be:</p>
<p>Math: normally just whichever year the student reaches calculus
English: normally just senior year
Foreign language: normally just whichever year the student reaches the highest level
Science: in theory, possible three years if all three of biology, chemistry, and physics are chosen
History: in theory, possible three years if all three histories are taken</p>
<p>So that is a possible total of nine AP courses over four years of high school, with most of them concentrated in junior and senior year.</p>
<p>Of course, there are also the low-value easier AP courses like statistics, environmental science, psychology, human geography, etc., but those are probably more comparable in rigor to regular high school courses.</p>
<p>I prefer to let students take as many APs as they want.
However, I think schools should limit the maximum number of APs they can be counted as 5 for GPA calculation. AP classes taken after the limit will be counted as 4 for GPA. This will stop the race for GPA.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus, what makes them low value. You don’t think that some kids discover a love for psychology or environmental science after taking them at a slower pace?</p>
<p>You don’t think that statistics taught over 9 months of a school year with a dedicated English speaking teacher might be better for some than the same material taught over 14 weeks in college by a grad student TA?</p>
<p>BTW, limitations on APs would include these too, and nobody wants to officially make a value judgement that these are easier.</p>
<p>I would love to see AP courses done away with. </p>
<p>In 20 years in higher ed, I’ve seen the number of AP courses explode, but have seen no improvement in the preparedness of students walking in the door. In fact, I can no longer offer the same syllabus I did 20 years ago because students don’t come in with the requisite knowledge. My colleagues have the same lament. Yep, I know, personal example and small sample, and I’m sure children of all the parents here on cc are different. </p>
<p>It bothers me a great deal that a company is trying to dictate curriculum on a national level, and I am pleased that fewer and fewer schools accept it or limit the amount they will accept. </p>
<p>It bothers me that the number of tests/courses continues to rise, making more and more money for said company.</p>
<p>For those of you that believe AP’s should be limited or abolished, do you feel that the dual credit/ early access community college courses should have the same fate?</p>
<p>Honestly, I feel like AP’s are a useless catch-22. </p>
<p>The kids who get all 4s and 5s generally aren’t applying to shools that accept APs for credits. The kids who DO apply to such schools aren’t the ones loading up on APs and doing well on them.</p>
<p>In ours, they are the same thing. They are restricted to juniors and seniors, with one exception (AP US History) which they opened to sophomores the year my history-fanatic son was a sophomore. I was one of those who loaded up on AP’s when I was in school since I was more “rounded” vs angular, but my kids each had specific interest areas and they took APs in those areas and didn’t take APs in the others. (So for example, D took APs in math and science but not English … S took APs in history and English but not science.) I think the strategy paid off, because taking APs in subjects that weren’t their natural love / inclination would have resulted in too much time being diverted to those subjects and away from the subjects they really cared about.</p>
<p>That is more appropriately a high school level course, rather than a college level course. “Low value” was in the context of college credit. Shouldn’t the advanced students who are the target for AP courses be able to handle the material at a college level pace (and the actual college introductory courses in psychology and environmental science are not generally considered difficult in most colleges anyway).</p>
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<p>AP statistics is often not considered equivalent in material to a college statistics course. Plus, it is widely seen as an “AP math course for students who are not good at math” and one of the “easy to self study APs”. Granted, statistics is useful knowledge, but AP statistics is probably best considered a high school level course (that is worth offering in high school even in the absence of AP branding).</p>
<p>In my school district, they have a full range of AP classes, which generally have the most experienced and committed teachers. However, as a budget cutting measure, they tried to get rid of ALL of the 11th and 12th grade honors levels classes and replace them with Dual Enrollment classes with adjunct instructors picked by the Community College. Many teachers were laid off. The students say the new teachers for the Dual Enrollment are bad - they don’t know how to teach high school kids, and some have never taught before. They were not required to have any training in education, only in their subject matter.</p>
<p>There would have been more teachers laid off, but the incoming 11th grade students couldn’t pass the qualification exam to take most of the Dual Enrollment science and math classes, so the School District had to restore many of the honors levels classes.</p>
<p>Born2dance I have to agree about your statement. Those that can pass with 5’s due tend to go to higher ranked colleges that don’t even accept the AP for credit.</p>
<p>Many schools allow students to use APs for placement. Some schools have more advanced courses in math and sciences that allows students with APs to go deeper without repetition. This is a good thing. APs are not useless in math and science. </p>
<p>D1 took Euro, Music Theory, Latin, and a few others. It doesn’t matter if they would have been good college courses, she thought that they were great HS courses.</p>
<p>Our school district eliminated APs and replaced them with rigorous advanced topics classes. Parents were up in arms at the time, concerned about a)college admissions and b)placement/advanced standing. The high school did a year long study of the colleges most applied to by their students to determine if there would be an adverse reaction by the admissions departments, including surveys, meetings and phone calls. They even went so far as to offer the syllabi of the the new courses for review. In the end, about 5 years later, there are no APs, rigorous classes for juniors and seniors are offered in their place and there has been no deleterious effect on college admissions. Teachers often offer study sessions in the spring for students who want to take AP exams and need some additional review of topics not covered or not covered in depth by the class. There has been little change in the scores of students who choose to take the AP exams from their predecessors who took AP classes. There is gatekeeping for these classes, and there always was for APs. Our HS has never offered dual enrollment or CC classes as an option. There was also never an AP arms race because they were only offered to juniors and seniors and there were never that many available anyway. I think if a student took every AP possible over those 2 years they would have maybe 7. The key factor in our community was that the new classes were created and vetted by subject area professors from Columbia, Brown etc. In this community the HS had to prove the rigor of the classes to the parents.</p>
<p>Got to agree with ucbalumnus. Google the top ten schools (USNEWSWR) and they accept many AP for courses credit and placement. Often you need a 5. </p>
<p>That seems quite a bit different from a typical high school, where, in the absence of AP, advanced courses probably would not even be offered (and even good high school level courses like statistics would not be offered).</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Taking an AP class is not always about getting college credit. It is often for enrichment, rigor, and getting prepared for the requirements the college level courses require. Should this happen in ALL HS courses. Of course, the problem is it doesn’t. </p></li>
<li><p>Princeton, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Bucknell, and Cornell accept AP credits. So not sure that there are really that many “elite” schools that do not accept AP credits. And all state U’s accept AP courses for credit. As do all community colleges. </p></li>
<li><p>If you plan well, and you think about what courses you are taking, AP can save you a large amount of money. Or at least offer opportunity to take other interesting courses in college that are NOT offered as AP courses. But you have to look for the opportunities, and it has to be important enough to the student to make the AP credit acceptance as part of the college search process. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>My Son is at the top of his class, has taken MANY ap credits, and is taking early access college credits at the community college his senior year. Because of his credits, he has chosen a college path that allows him to use those , and he will be able to get his Masters degree, along side his Bachelors in 4 years. </p>
<p>I credit the access to the AP classes for keeping my student engaged, and keeping him focused on academics. In non-ap classes, the teachers are often babysitters. Sad, but true. </p>
<p>Yes, if planned properly, and used correctly, AP and early access collge credits are very beneficial to students. BUT, it has to be a priority for the student to make them worthwhile.</p>
<p>runnersmom, that sounds like it could potentially be great but requires a lot of work and a lot of thought by a lot of people. </p>
<p>I don’t see anybody proposing that in our district, and I doubt that we have the resources to pull that off. I see them proposing a limit on APs and taking the position that the rest of their course offerings should be “good enough for high school kids”.</p>