racial gaps in AP scores

Parents Forum
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<p>This is a pretty interesting article I found on msnbc today. If you don't have time now to read it here's a quick summary by me:</p>

<p>-more students taking AP tests
-scores remained steady from 2004-2005
-# passing one test increased, but black students both took them at a lower rate and scored lower
-blacks not taking tests at level of asians/lations/american indians</p>

<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11217397/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11217397/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>"College Board calls for 'major initiatives' to end racial gaps in test levels"</p>

<p>Like what? Offering AP in Ebonics or Baton Twirling? When it comes to the development of the AP program, allow me to be highly skeptical.</p>

<p>For starters, TCB might consider being a bit less generous in allowing almost every school to offer AP or establishing minimum criteria for participation. </p>

<p>Allowing schools that offer three dozen AP courses to a population that can't breal 900 on the old SAT ought to scrutinized. Even if they look good to Jay Matthews!</p>

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<p>We're not doing a good job educating black Americans.
It also looks like we're not doing a very good job educating Americans in general if only 380,000 students passed "at least one" test.
The problem won't be solved by tinkering with the AP test or with the criteria for participation. It will only be solved when Americans truly care about educating all of their citizens, starting with preschool.</p>

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<p>my oldest didn't attend a school that had any AP classes at all.
I mentioned to her the tests- but she wasn't interested.
Oh well
I liked the courses she had in high school, I think they prepared her pretty well, but of course I don't have a background in education so what do I know.
Ap are not tops on my list
My younger daughter has been taking one this year in 10th gd, but I am not going to recommend she take another next year.
I think it is great that we have more people attempting to take challenging classes than in the past.
If half the numbers of a student population are taking a test that is supposed to be the equivalent of a college course, while they are in high school, that sounds like a lot of kids are really challenging themselves- but are those numbers, the percentage of students that are on track to graduate, or where are the rest of them
I know at my daughters school, she has some classes where she is the only white student, and other classes that are mostly white.
The more challenging courses are seen as too much work by some students. It isnt because they aren't welcome, they are encouraged to attend. We even had a class last year that was AP/honors level that was on race relations. Lots of kids wanted to take the class- problem is, they weren't black. Pressure was put on the teacher to make it an easier class, he refused, pressure was put on the school to cancel it( by the outside community)- they did.</p>

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<p>It's obvious that AP tests are racially biased. ;)</p>

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<p>Maybe TCB can come up with a pre AP prep course to sell to the high schools!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>I could not help but see IRONY in the artilce this morning in the Washington Post authored by Jay Mathews himself-</p>

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<p>naxos - TCB already has a pre-AP program</p>

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<p>For a fee? I was unaware!!!!!!! How does it work?</p>

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<p>Jay Matthews is an idiot with an agenda ... a lethal combination. </p>

<p>Here's a gem from his last article: </p>

<p>"AP means Advanced Placement. It, and a smaller but similar program called International Baccalaureate (IB), are high school courses designed to take the place of introductory courses in college. They have long reading lists and difficult final exams written and graded by outside experts.</p>

<p>I have yet to find a single public school of ordinary size and enrollment that has managed to come close to achieving the depth and excitement in learning reached by AP and IB schools. Until one shows up, it will be hard to persuade me that these programs are not vital for American education."</p>

<p>Vital for American education?</p>

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<p>It's hard to persuade him that AP programs are not vital. He believes they are vital. How is that a "gem"?</p>

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<p>""College Board calls for 'major initiatives' to end racial gaps in test levels"</p>

<p>Like what? Offering AP in Ebonics or Baton Twirling? When it comes to the development of the AP program, allow me to be highly skeptical."</p>

<p>Instead of being "skeptical," I suggest that you think more in depth.</p>

<p>What is causing black students to score low on APs is the type of instruction they are getting in high schools. I have volunteered in a variety of schools in various parts of the country, and I also have served on scholarship committees in which I got to see teacher recommendations, writing samples and grades of students from a variety of types of schools.</p>

<p>What was very clear to me was that in general schools that are majority black are likely to have teachers who aren't as good as are at predominantly white schools in high income areas. Both schools may teach APs, but the predominantly black school is likely to have a relatively weak teacher teaching APs, which is why the students don't score that high.</p>

<p>For instance, I saw recommendations written by AP English teachers in black schools and those teacher's recommendations contained major grammatical errors. No surprise that very few students at that school (a competitive public in a large, predominantly black city) passed the AP English exam. It wasn't because the students were stupid or unmotivated. It was because they were being inadequately taught.</p>

<p>For reasons that include pay, safety, parental involvement, and often the effectiveness of the administration, the best teachers of all races tend to flock to the schools in upper income areas, and those schools tend to be majority white.</p>

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<p>AP wouldn't be as necessary as it is if more schools had creditable alternatives or substitutes. If a school doesn't have at least one type (preferably two types) of "Honors" or "Gifted" or whatever-track series of courses, students with talent or ambition (preferably both) end up doing group projects in a classroom where note passing and spit-wad shooting is the norm, the curriculum is weak and grading standards are law.</p>

<p>I have mixed feelings about Jay Mathews' big push for huge enrollment in AP classes, because it don't believe (as is politically correct and otherwise widely believed) that all students should take the same classes, regardless of the level of preparedness, interest, talent, time committment, whatever. But, except for IB, most schools don't have and won't have a satisfactory substitute for making quite a number of AP classes available to their students.</p>

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<p>"Instead of being "skeptical," I suggest that you think more in depth."</p>

<p>And I suggest that you use the same "in depth thinking" to understand the nature of my skepticism and to whom my remarks were directed.</p>

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<p>D high school has 3 tracks- AP- honors and regular
You apply for whatever track you are willing to do the work- it is not limited by grades or race
THe better teachers- often teach- the more rigourous classes- although my daughter does have a very good teacher for math- where she is the only white student- the problem is, the curriculum is not optimal especially when students do not have parents to fill in the gaps at home.
this is ancedotal-
she has friends from all areas of school- her friends that are taking mostly AP classes- are mostly Asian- but she has other friends who are taking a less rigourous schedule than she is - and I know they are at least as capable.
She was in special education for 6 years and she is in remedial math, but she is taking an AP class. But many of her friends just don't want to do that much work-it is not an income issue- this school has higher average income than her previous school- but the parents who often have attended an instate public university, with the grades that would still get you into university 30 years ago, don't realize that things have changed.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom: You might have a point about the quality of instruction in AP courses in majority black schools, but I think an ever bigger point, at most schools, is the quality of instruction in courses leading up to AP. In other words, the whole program.</p>

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<p>I find it hard to control my angry reaction to another of JMathews' articles- On so many levels, his proclamations irk me- What get me the most is that his publishers- the Washington Post and sister Newsweek give him carte blanche to make his proclamations which seem to catch on because his editors and the general public accept his views as gospel.
His original statements in the Wash Post declared that a student's presence in an AP or IB class was enough to gain succes at the college level- totally disregarding the test scores or quality of teaching. From that statement came his challenge index- locally in DC at first and then on a national level as reported by Newsweek. Then, finally some social scientists published a study which low and behold affrimed what thinking people already knew- that how a student did on the exam was positively correllated to post sec success- not just presence in the AP class.</p>

<p>Now we have students herded into these classes with or without interest, with trained and lesser trained faculty and I am afraid that the kids suffer- While I agree that we need to raise standards inour HS, the kids are being used as pawns- like with Whole Langueage or everday math- Take an idea and run with it and forget about how the kids will fare? How frustrated are these kids who are pushed into these classes so the principal can move up the challenge rating scale?</p>

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<p>"Northstarmom: You might have a point about the quality of instruction in AP courses in majority black schools, but I think an ever bigger point, at most schools, is the quality of instruction in courses leading up to AP. In other words, the whole program."</p>

<p>You are very right. Indeed, the best teachers in the inner city and other predominantly black schools are teaching the AP classes. Having seen how inadequate many of those teachers are, I can only imagine how awful some of the other teachers are.</p>

<p>It is very important to realize that most predominantly black schools and most schools that are majority poor have a large percentage of teachers who lack certification, are new teachers or are not certified in the subject in which they are teaching. Many are not ever able to get the necessary certification, and simply move to a new low income school when their time expires for being able to teach without certification at a particular school.</p>

<p>This is true of teachers of all races (I am fairly sure, by the way, that research has indicated that most black students are taught by white teachers), not just black teachers. The system exists because:
1. The lack of parental participation in the schools.
2. The lack of sophisticated parents participating in the schools. Parents in inner city and predominantly black schools may not have the education to recognize teachers' incompetence or may not have the sophisticated knowledge about educational systems to recognize the inadequacies of their kids' education. Unfortunately, black people as a whole don't spend a lot of time sharing information about education. This is true even of highly educated black people. </p>

<ol>
<li>Racism and lack of interest by top school administrators.</li>
</ol>

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<p>*This is true of teachers of all races (I am fairly sure, by the way, that research has indicated that most black students are taught by white teachers), not just black teachers. The system exists because:
1. The lack of parental participation in the schools.
2. The lack of sophisticated parents participating in the schools. Parents in inner city and predominantly black schools may not have the education to recognize teachers' incompetence or may not have the sophisticated knowledge about educational systems to recognize the inadequacies of their kids' education. Unfortunately, black people as a whole don't spend a lot of time sharing information about education. This is true even of highly educated black people. *</p>

<p>My impression is as a white blue collar city dweller- is this is very accurate.
Seattle is a very tolerant city- however- it is hard to get anything done- for anyone. Its all about process- not product.</p>

<p>BLack parents dont feel welcome in some of the schools- historically, white parents are more involved, they have a different style, than black families in interacting- just my observation I am not making a judgment. BUt in working with different groups around the city, I notice that communication wise- blacks are much more verbal and louder than whites. I am getting used to it, but I can't change my style in communcating- I wonder if the black parents who are used to more interaction in their community, are put off by the more business style of the white parents- because the black parents who seem to be more involved in the mainstream groups, are the more mainstream behaving parents, but they are seen as "elitist" by some of the other parents, and they don't get involved.</p>

<p>I really wish we could have more dialogue about what is happening "now".
D school has some great programs- some great teachers and lots of great kids.
But- black parents, do not participate in the community to the extent that other parents do- many do- but many don't. Many choose other areas to do their volunteer work and that is fine, except many of these kids, really need someone who looks like them in the schools.
Turning things around is hard. I feel like black parents see all these white and asian parents tutoring the black kids- and feel like they aren't wanted.
I am in the school, and I see lots of wonderful things being done. </p>

<p>But until we really start talking about racism- not just white----->black racism- but black<---->black, asian- white-, elitism, provincialism, all the baggage that everyone of us brings to the table, we are going to keep going in circles.
I am stubborn,and that is why I still work with people who tell me that whites hate blacks, that those of use who live in traditionally white communities, think we are superior to those who live in traditionally black community, that assume that even though they are the ones with the college degrees and the big house, that my kids have it easier than their kids. I just take it as part of the terriority, I understand there is a lot of anger, but I will not become one of these white liberals- who bend over backwards to make excuses for everyone else- who if they could dye their skin they could.
If you start at line A and you want to get to level C- then you do what it takes. Period.
I used to think that the schools would do what they were supposed to do- which was educate my kid- and all I had to do was show up at open house, volunteer in the classroom, and contribute to the PTA.
Then I finally realized that , that wasn't enough, that I was going to have to quit my job, to work in the school, to try and get tutoring programs going for students, including my own. Then I realized that , that wasn't happening fast enough, that I was going to have to pay money I didn't have- take out a loan even, to pay for tutoring for my daughter. That to make up for lost instruction, she not only had to do her classwork, but the tutoring assignments as well.
But if you want to get to level C- you have to do what it takes- it isn't fair- but life isnt fair- ultimately no one cares if my daughter gets to level C but me and her. Nobody else is going to help her get there unless I drag them along with us. And yes it sucks, and yes I don't know what the heck I am doing- but that is the way it is- change starts from teh inside- I can't change anyone but myself.</p>

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<p>naxos - I don't actually know how the pre-AP program works. I just know it exists. Here's a link to more info on it from College Board:
<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/apnc/apnc05/program/post.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/apnc/apnc05/program/post.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Thanks Texas- I see that the CB runs professional development workshops - a money maker I suppose.</p>