My kid got a 5 in his BC class but got Bs in the class itself. Since he did this in 11th grade and he’s entering university in the fall (semester schedule) he’s leaning towards skipping the first Calc class, but taking the 2nd Calc class again even though he can skip out of both. We will see what his adviser says.
Agreed – math is a bit of a hot mess. My D took Calc BC in 11th grade – it kinda kicked her butt (though she got an A by the narrowest of margins and a 4 on the test) so she took a math class for fun as a senior – applied discrete or something – rather than going on to multivariable. Anyway, this Fall in college she’s prolly going to do some self refresh 1st semester and then take Calc 2 the 2nd semester (She’s a bio major).
So while it was kinda cool she was on accelerated path in HS she’ll now have 1.5 years off from it and will re-take the 2nd semester in college. So not sure what acceleration really got her other than looking good on her college apps.
I don’t want her to start with Calc 1 as it seems like a waste of a class, but I do agree she’s not prepared to jump into Calc 3 despite taking BC. So starting with Calc 2 feels like a compromise – we’ll see what her adviser says this summer. (But she’s not starting with Calc 2 this fall b/c she doesn’t have time this summer to do the refresh due to working at a camp (no internet!) and traveling.)
Meanwhile, younger S is not on accelerated track based on a test he took in 5th grade and can’t take Calc until senior year and thinks it’s a travesty b/c he’s thinking about engineering. . . so apparently there’s no winning either way, lol
@AlmostThere2018 that stupid placement that they take in 5th or 6th grade to determine your math track is somewhat ridiculous. Many boys are not mature enough at that age to understand the ramifications of such a test and how to properly take that type of test. In my kid’s case he had just flown home from winning a national championship in chess and the very next day he took the placement test. His head was still on cloud 9 somewhere else. Needless to say he got on the track where Calc wasn’t until as a senior. He wound up going to a private school/taking a CC Algebra class for a while in junior high to get him “back on track”.
@ProfessorPlum168 – yeah, my son thought about trying to jump tracks last summer but the district isn’t very supportive and it was complicated (we have spiraled math) so we let it drop. He was in a bilingual program in elementary so half his math instruction was in Spanish which didn’t help. Overall great program but the math instruction and materials were not great. Plus, he’s young for his grade and a boy. After realizing acceleration didn’t really help my D, I think he’s cool with it now. Many of his buddies are on the other track but his ego seems to have finally gotten over that, lol.
It looks like our kids are doing the same thing in college this year starting with Calc 2 after taking BC as Juniors. . .
@AlmostThere2018 taking Calc BC or AB as a senior is probably not a big deal in retrospect. It only hurts IMO if they are trying to combine AP Calc, AP Stats, AP Physics C AND AP Comp Sci A all in 12th grade, which I see some kids do every year at my kid’s HS. That’s a very tough load in itself. Also, though AP Physics C is supposed to track with AP Calc AB, sometimes the Physics C teacher can move at a faster pace than the AB teacher, which causes issues. That’s another reason why sometimes schools list Calculus as a prerequisite of Physics C rather than as a co-requisite.
If someone made me retake calculus (or most any class) I would be so bored. The Algebra 2 followed by Precalculus thing was bad enough because it was pretty much the same class twice.
I dislike the title’s “racing to calculus” premise. For most HS students it is a natural math course progression they started in middle school. For some of those middle school students “racing to algebra” would be a correct assumption, hopefully their school district will have them slow down and redo algebra as HS freshmen like our district did.
As to repeating the first semester in college. Remember that AP courses are so-so compared to many college versions. Therefore students who do well in the AP version may not have covered enough material to succeed in the second semester at their college and are better off starting from the beginning. Many variables. Sometimes starting at the beginning firms up concepts in college plus frees up time to study other things more instead of needing extra time for that subject to keep afloat.
A scan of previous posts yielded that the students taking calculus are likely the top students. They NEED the AP courses to prevent complete boredom with their HS curriculum (some of them will still be bored- our gifted son did not tell us how bored he had been, in pre-online course abundance days, until after college). Others are marginal for them- they find out once they struggle (and may have found regular classes easy).
As to the toughness of the load. It all depends on the individual student. Again, no big deal for those gifted in math to take multiple STEM AP courses at once, plus other AP classes. I could state my son’s AP courses and the years he took them but those are dependent on any school’s offerings and rules (I still shake my head at schools who limit AP’s to certain grade levels instead of considering a student’s needs).
The big deal is those who are good but not gifted students who try to improve their credentials at the expense of taking more appropriate courses and/or course loads. Future success and happiness in life does not hinge on getting into certain colleges just because so many in the “high pressure” HS do. I’ll bet many of these kids envy those without the pressures when they discover the HS experience of fellow college students who do just as well as they do.
I am in a STEM field. I have taught undergraduates. I use math all the time. I could help my son with homework straight through BC Calc. I know my math.
Here’s the deal. If you enter a field that actually uses mathematics, you should know that AB and BC are not the same as the college course. Not even close. Sure, if all yu want to do in college is “Calc for Business Majors” the high school class might be sufficient, but there is no way the calc my son took in high school is remotely equivalent to a solid “Calc for Engineers.”
Don’t set your kid up to fail. There are tons of stories of adults who when in college pushed too far ahead and got cremated.
CWRU even warns the incoming Freshmen to be careful about using their math AP. My son is entering a solid Big Ten engineering program - the College of Science and Engineering doesn’t even mention AP calc. I spoke to the head of his major second Big Ten engineering program that accepted him, and the professor warned me against letting my son skip ahead.
If my son is really lucky, he might just understand the fundamental theorem of calculus this time through. In high school, he learned to do the problems, but he didn’t really “get” the theory. If he is going to make it as an engineer, he needs to do better than just solving the proglems.
Not true at my son’s public school. Nearly everyone heading to college had a year of calculus. Most of the kids heading to good STEM schools had BC or more.
Addenda. Son went to UW-Madison, ended up with an honors math degree and computer science as a second major. Both fields top twenty or higher for grad schools. He did get AP credit for his 5 on the AP test but then did the honors calculus sequence. Honors was theory based while regular problem based as a generalization. There were, of course, some really gifted math students who would have entered the honors sequence at a higher level.
Taking HS AP courses then starting at the beginning in college level courses can mean better preparation for the more rigorous college versions. Frankly, I think sometimes that students should take college versions in more courses than they do in many of the fields they use for their breadth requirements. When you think about repetition it starts with first grade. And not just the old teacher typically repeats three times but in that every year builds on old material with content repeat/review while adding to it.
However, it is not uncommon to see posts from students in high school or their parents wanting to accelerate math to get to calculus in high school, or get to calculus earlier than on the track they are on (e.g. in 11th grade instead of 12th grade).
https://case.edu/admission/apply/ap-ib-college-credit indicates that CWRU allows high enough AP calculus scores to take advanced placement in the “calculus for science and engineering” sequence (MATH 121, 122).
Taking the more rigorous honors course in college is not the same as repeating AP credit in the regular version that the college allows skipping.
Or it can mean boredom and lack of attention in the repeated course, resulting in a grade lower than the assumed “easy A”. If the student knows the material well (checked by trying the college’s old final exams for the course), then a useless repeat is also a waste of time and tuition.
^^ regarding my warning about CWRU that you reference above. Certainly there are some kids for whom advance placement in college is appropriate, but if you kept reading, you would notice that the median grade of those who accelearate after getting a 4 on the exam is a C.
Kids enter college with different prep and different ability. Those of us who are warning against going too fast are simply making a simple point:
- high school and college classes are generally not the same.
- ignore this at your peril.
Where does it say that?
So why turn it into a blanket statement always to repeat your AP credit when you can make a more informed decision about advanced placement by trying the college’s old final exams for the course that is allowed to be skipped?
“For most HS students it is a natural math course progression they started in middle school.”
I think the OP was talking about parents whose kid is not on the accelerated track and gets the school to switch them for the sake of admissions, so it’s an unnatural path as the kid was tested to take a path ending with pre-calc or something similar. Then they place out of Calc with the AP test, but take it again.
My main issue with the accelerated math program in our district is that prior to HS they do a really good job at showing the students that math is everywhere through some really cool projects but once they hit HS it is incredibly theoretical. For my engineering DS that learns best “hands on” this was SO boring that he got to AP Calc AB as a junior and needed a break. He took AP stats, AP chem and AP Physics C as a senior and felt very well prepared for freshman engineering— earned Dean’s list both semesters— and credits USING the math for a year with solidifying that foundation for college. His college requires a math placement test for all. He started in Calc II, even with the year off, and is now done with all classes called “math” as a rising junior. It is all application for him from now on. Save yourself some stress and allow your kid to do math at their pace.
Questions for those who say that students should always repeat their AP calculus credit:
If a student has completed up to precalculus in high school, and any applicable math placement exam indicates that s/he is ready for calculus, would you advise him/her to repeat precalculus in college anyway? If not, why the difference between this recommendation and the recommendation for those with AP calculus?
If a student completes AP calculus BC in 11th grade and earns a 5 on the AP test, and has the opportunity to take math at a local college in 12th grade, would you advise him/her to retake calculus in 12th grade, versus taking more advanced math courses?
If college courses are more rigorous than high school colleges, should students also retake algebra and precalculus? Why should the line be drawn at calculus?
D didn’t repeat math, and started with cal 3 in college. However, I see the issues with all the science classes. Medical schools don’t take AP credits and D had to repeat all the chem, bio, physics, as well as having one year of writing.
D got 48 credits of AP from Vandy when she started as a freshman. After one year of 30 credits, she has 66 credits now. 12 credits were repeat, chem, physics, and writing. Next semester, she is doing org chem with bio, again another repeat!
Nationally, parents must have spent millions on AP tests and have kids having to repeat classes, even when they choose schools that accept the AP credits! Hooray to the College Board!!
UCBA Alumnus:
1.“Where did it say that?” I can’t remember where it said that on the CWRU website, since my kid picked a different school.
2: “So why turn it into a blanket statement always to repeat your AP credit when you can make a more informed decision about advanced placement by trying the college’s old final exams for the course that is allowed to be skipped?”
I’m not making a blanket statement, just stating that the AB and BC calc curricula are not as rigorous as the more rigorouse sequences at the better colleges. I know this because I have seen the high school curriculum and taught kids in college who had taken calculus in college.
If your kid is more capable than most, go for it. What’s right for the very gifted kids who went to elite high schools – their experience is largely irrelevant to the typical kid hoping not to wash out of their major.
Lots of students from non-elite high schools do move on and do well without repeating their AP credit.
Now, since you mention Big Ten schools, it is true that many of them have a first year pre-engineering weed-out process where a GPA substantially higher than 2.0 is needed to get into or stay in an engineering major. That can create incentives for pre-med-style grade-grubbing (e.g. repeating AP credit trying to get an “easy A”).