Random Rivalry Question

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
21

<p>This classic column, appearing originally in the Daily Californian, is regularly reprinted by the Daily Pennsylvanian in conjunction with Princeton football weekends.</p>

<p>(For some unknown reason, the site moderators seem particularly hostile to the posting of this old chestnut - which has appeared elsewhere on the internet for years. Oddly, other newspaper articles of greater length have been posted without censorship.)</p>

<p>So I dug out an archived link to the original 1997 column:</p>

<p><a href="http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:zGJgyTaZvLQJ:archive.dailycal.org/archive/08.19.97/oped/rivalry.html+%22Rivalries+:Put+Up+or+Shut+Up%22&hl=en%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:zGJgyTaZvLQJ:archive.dailycal.org/archive/08.19.97/oped/rivalry.html+%22Rivalries+:Put+Up+or+Shut+Up%22&hl=en&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

22

<p>Byerly: I would be interested in hearing your response to the claim that Princeton is more undergraduate focused, and as a result has more accessible professors.</p>

23

<p>From what I've seen:
Yale does a lot of Harvard-bashing
Harvard doesn't feel the need to bash
And either way, Princeton doesn't care.</p>

24

<p>then why does Byerly bash. . . .</p>

<p>And there's no need to bash any of those schools, anyway, because they're obviously all great schools. I would never bash any of them. But at the same time, I wouldn't tolerate it if someone bashed my school because it was outside of the "HYP" hype group.</p>

25

<p>I have never "bashed" any school.</p>

<p>(except maybe Reed!)</p>

26

<p>I'm a junior at Harvard and have made many friends at other Ivy League schools by attending conferences etc. From my experiences, students at other Ivies think Harvard students are stuck up, arrogant, etc, and this causes rivalries. For instance, the Dartmouth-Harvard game is big to Dartmouth, they all come down on busses and root for their team, whereas I didn't know were "were Dartmouth's rival" until some Dartmouth friends told me this.</p>

<p>But once you hang out with people from other schools, have a few drinks, play some beer pong, they realize that Harvard students are just like them and we're all friends :). </p>

<p>So no there isn't much Yale-bashing except during our homecoming game Harvard-Yale. Sometimes people make jokes about MIT, especially when a few of us can't figure out something, we'll say "I bet the people down the river could do this, can't we get the MIT students to do this" etc. But mostly we are insulting ourselves and our inability to do something scientific!</p>

27

<p>Beer pong...sounds fun.</p>

28

<p>awww. I am so sad that people are saying Harvard lacks in school spirit. NorthStarMom, I agree with you that crazy, obsessive, rah rah-ing gets annoying, but there is some school pride there, right? I feel so hypocritical right now... I am voted "most school spirit" in my high school, yet when people ask me where I am going to college I nearly mumble it so I dont sound pretentious. Ah.</p>

29

<p>"but there is some school pride there, right?"</p>

<p>Of course. Harvard students and alum are very proud that Harvard is internationally regarded as the world's best university. As a result, though, no one needs to run around doing various things to demonstrate their pride in Harvard. As a result, one ends up acting very blase about things. We don't need spirit day, homecoming and things like that to prove that we're important or to remind the locals that we exist.</p>

<p>A lot of times out in the general world, I can recognize Harvard folks because if the subject of college comes up and people start talking about where they went, most people will loudly name their college, but Harvard folks will say something like, "I went to school in Mass." and then will change the subject. </p>

<p>It's not lack of pride. Of course Harvard folks are very proud of their college. They know, however, that once the H-word is dropped, there'll be silence or people will say something like, "Oh, you must be a genius" or some other thing that is simply embarrassing.</p>

30

<p>Old Chinese proverb:
"Over-modest is half-proud."</p>

<p>The fact that people from Harvard are reluctant to mention their alma mater is fine. The fact that they are aware of this phenomenon and will mention it on forums can be percieved as a whole new plane of arrogance; i.e. "we cannot brandish our affiliation with Big H in front of civilians, lest its shining brilliance melt them like the nazis in Indiana Jones..."
This isn't an attack, nor am I implying you intended the comment that way, I'm just bringing up common sentiment.</p>

31

<p>So basically the lessen we can take from this is that if you go to Harvard, you're arrogant by default - whether you mention it or not. </p>

<p>It's a funny life. :)</p>

32

<p>For whatever reason, Harvard (and Harvardians) are held to a different standard. What is seen as normal boosterism - and even admirable school pride - in others is often viewed as intolerable arrogance in Harvardians. This syndrome is well known to those who have experienced it - and this site is no exception. You make positive comments about Harvard at your peril.</p>

33

<p>"The fact that people from Harvard are reluctant to mention their alma mater is fine. The fact that they are aware of this phenomenon and will mention it on forums can be percieved as a whole new plane of arrogance;"</p>

<p>This is the Harvard forum. There should be no problem in mentioning something like this on a forum designed for people interested in our alma mater.</p>

34

<p>Byerly brings up a good point.
I have not, however, seen you say a single bad thing about the school in any of these threads. Saying that X University is great at this and is ranked as this and doesnt need rivals for this and has this mean SAT is fine as long as you add the grains of salt where they're due. Unless you feel the place lacks a single flaw, I'm interested in hearing the benefits (even if they pale in weight) of attending another school.
Northstarmom you're welcome to contribute.</p>

35

<p>I have been posting on CC for about 2 years, and if you check my back posts, you'll find plenty of good things that I have said about a variety of colleges. The latest is a post that I made today that supports historically black colleges and universities. </p>

<p>I also have gone on record several times to say that just because students are smart and have the stats for Harvard does not mean that Harvard is the right college for them. As is the case with any college, it is not perfect.</p>

<p>It is a great place for people who are very independent, passionate, confident, intense and are not looking for a undergraduate-centered environment overflowing with gung-ho school spirit and people who love to hug and sing Kumbaya together.</p>

<p>If what a student wants in college is a more laid back environment where it's routine for students and profs to have lunch together, I suggest going to a LAC or to a university that is known for the prevalence of these kind of relationships. </p>

<p>While there are some students at Harvard who manage to lunch with their profs and to have close relationships with profs, it is not a place where strong bonds usually occur betwen professors and undergraduate students. IMO for the majority of Harvard undergrads, the heart of their experience is being around so many interesting undergraduate students. In some other colleges, particularly those known for nurturing environments and excellence of teaching, the heart of the experience may be the bonds between professors and students. </p>

<p>If one is a shy or unconfident person who flourishes when profs seek you out and give you a push, go elsewhere. Profs keep office hours, and you are welcome to use those office hours. Profs, though, are not likely to chase you down to suggest that you apply for summer programs, etc. You would be expected to look for opportunities yourself and to have the good sense to use the Career Center for further assistance.</p>

<p>Harvard is located in the heart of a large metropolitan area that is filled with people who are snobbish and snarky. Crossing the street at Harvard Square can feel like a race between the quick and the dead. If one is looking for small town charm and friendliness, Harvard is not the place for you. </p>

<p>It is a very liberal place so if one is politically conservative, one should be prepared to be in the minority.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
While there are some students at Harvard who manage to lunch with their profs and to have close relationships with profs, it is not a place where strong bonds usually occur betwen professors and undergraduate students.

[/quote]

A number of top universities--including Cornell, Dartmouth, Princeton, and Yale--sponsor Take a Professor to Lunch (or Dinner) programs.</p>

37

<p>I have been told that Harvard does have a take a prof to lunch or dinner program. Also, it has a twice a semester faculty dinner, in which students invite one of their profs to a fancier dinner at their dining hall.</p>

38

<p>I second the views expressed by Northstarmom in her most recent post, though I might not express them in quite the same way.</p>

<p>I have consistently - here and elsewhere - made the point that Harvard is not warm and cuddly; if you are self-confident, assertive and not shy, it will be a heavenly environment for you.</p>

<p>If this is not the case, you should look elsewhere.</p>

39

<p>Is a big game for Dartmouth because Harvard is the closest Ivy school to get to from Dartmouth and kids like going into Boston every so often.</p>

<p>The Princeton v. Dartmouth football game is the rivalry game, although talking to older alumni it seems like it is a bigger deal at Princeton. Probably because until recently Dartmouth had the most successful football team in ivy history.</p>

40

<p>"A lot of times out in the general world, I can recognize Harvard folks because if the subject of college comes up and people start talking about where they went, most people will loudly name their college, but Harvard folks will say something like, "I went to school in Mass." and then will change the subject. It's not lack of pride. Of course Harvard folks are very proud of their college. They know, however, that once the H-word is dropped, there'll be silence or people will say something like, "Oh, you must be a genius" or some other thing that is simply embarrassing."</p>

<p>Not to bash Harvard, but: Yes, the all-too-common response to "where do you go to school" is: "In the Northeast." Where in the NE? "In Massachusetts." Where in MA? "Boston." Where in Boston? And so it goes.</p>

<p>Northstarmom is correct that this game does not reflect "lack of pride." In fact, exactly the opposite is true: it's an underhanded display of arrogance. The message is essentially that "I am better than you, but I predict that it will be awkward for me to watch your response to the 'H-bomb.' So I'll try to avoid the issue altogether by simply being elusive when you ask."</p>

<p>Although there are 3-4 schools in the US that elicit a similar "wow" factor from the general public, it's somehow only Harvard students who consistently behave this way. And who then try to rationalize it by blaming others for having their "wow" reactions.</p>