<p>
[quote]
most employers and people who aren't totally ignorant would know that
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Who said that they were Cal students? I didn't. But the PERCEPTION is that these types of tree-hugging activities are commonplace at Cal... most people who aren't totally ignorant would know that.</p>
<p>"and because of the constant references to it in movies -- Berkeley researchers in Phenomenon with John Travolta, PhD graduates in Legally Blonde, etc."</p>
<ul>
<li>I don't know... I hear Northwestern mentioned in movies more than Berkeley... :rolleyes:</li>
</ul>
<p>Don't forget the main characters in Superbad going to Dartmouth.</p>
<p>no offense but most people in the south and florida where I am from have never heard of northwestern...... i had never even heard of it until i started coming on college confidential....... and trust me I'm not living in a bubble its just truthfully i had never heard of Northwestern.... I got it confused with Northeastern because my cousin goes there.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Cal's research reputation is very solid -- no doubt about that... but let's be frank, when most people think of Cal for undergrad, they think of tree hugging hippies like the ones living in the trees in front of their football stadium this weekend to protest the building of Cal's new athletic facility...</p>
<p>"Prestige" isn't exactly what pops into mind like it does with HYP or Stanford.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think that's quite how it works, though, since one can associate certain things with a university (or its students, in this case) and still regard it as prestigious. For example, people often associate Harvard with a bunch of rich, snobby kids who come from a long line of Harvard graduates -- but that association doesn't wear down on its prestige. Same deal with Berkeley, I think.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't know... I hear Northwestern mentioned in movies more than Berkeley...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? I don't hear too much of Northwestern. Having lived in the Midwest, I know it's very prestigious, though I don't see references to it in movies, etc. as often as, say, Berkeley.</p>
<p>"no offense but most people in the south and florida where I am from have never heard of northwestern."</p>
<p>Well, I'm glad I don't go to those places. :) </p>
<p>"i had never even heard of it until i started coming on college confidential....... and trust me I'm not living in a bubble its just truthfully i had never heard of Northwestern.... I got it confused with Northeastern because my cousin goes there."</p>
<p>-The same could be said for most schools.... There are like 3 schools that get universal recognition. I mean, where I'm from, there are like 30 schools that would be recognized before Berkeley did. </p>
<p>Tell a random person from Chicago that you go to 'Columbia', and the school in New York probably wouldn't be the first place he thinks of... The same can often be said for the University of Chicago itself... many confuse that school with the University of Illinois at Chicago. I'm not offended that people where you're from haven't heard of Northwestern, because honestly, most people only recognize schools close to them - or the super prestigious. </p>
<p>"Really? I don't hear too much of Northwestern. Having lived in the Midwest, I know it's very prestigious, though I don't see references to it in movies, etc. as often as, say, Berkeley."</p>
<ul>
<li>I don't know. I can't remember the last time Berkeley was mentioned in a movie. Northwestern, however, was mentioned as recently as The Devil wears Prada, a movie which was replete with references to the school... despite the novel having been written about a Brown graduate....</li>
</ul>
<p>
[quote]
Cal's research reputation is very solid -- no doubt about that... but let's be frank, when most people think of Cal for undergrad, they think of tree hugging hippies like the ones living in the trees in front of their football stadium this weekend to protest the building of Cal's new athletic facility...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree to a certain extent -- the image they have are that they're tree-hugging hippies that are pretty bright (and probably misguided in general) -- but still pretty bright.</p>
<p>"I don't know... I hear Northwestern mentioned in movies more than Berkeley..."</p>
<p>I can only laugh at that statement. Berkeley's name is sig more well known than the Northwestern name to the general public. Berkeley is significantly more well known in the united states and nationally than northwestern. part of this is because of its legacy and the 60's, part of it is the amount of top ranked programs, part of it is how much its mentioned in movies and books. Those in academics and familiar with academia know how wonderfull a school northwestern is and how bright their undergrads and grads are. But to the general public, the Berkeley name is more prestigious and deff more well known. And some stating that Berkeley undergrad is not nec top notch, we are talking about prestige of an overall university, not just its undergrads. obviously berkeley undergrads are top notch, but combine them that with their grad programs and Berkeley's overall prestige falls just below Harvard nationally and internationally. Remember, we are talking about a universities' prestige, not just its undergrad education. And as an overall university, their are very very few names that are considered more prestigious. The argument that their undergrad education is not as good as northwesterns and such doesnt apply. we are talking about universities and prestige, and obviously this encompasses a university as a whole as it is known to the general public. stating that northwestern is as well known around the country and around the globe is a bit of a stretch.</p>
<p>"I can only laugh at that statement. Berkeley's name is sig more well known than the Northwestern name to the general public."</p>
<p>-I'm talking about movie references, not about what you believe to be "more well known" to the general public.</p>
<p>"Berkeley is significantly more well known in the united states and nationally than northwestern."</p>
<p>-Yea... you can try to back it up with as much fluff as you like, I just don't buy it. This may be the case where you're at in..... California.... but it most certainly is not in the places where I've been - especially not in the town I'm from. </p>
<p>-Also, I think it's dangerous to confuse "well-known" with "prestige". Heck, if that's the case, places like Penn State and Ohio State should be the most prestigious schools in the country. I mean, one in every 720 Americans is a graduate of Penn State, but then again, who cares?</p>
<p>"The argument that their undergrad education is not as good as northwesterns and such doesnt apply."</p>
<p>-What are you talking about? I was talking about movie references, not comparing the schools' undergraduate educations. I do, however, find it funny how the Berkeley supporters dismiss the weaker undergraduate education and yet tout the grad education to say the school is "just below Harvard". Like you said: "we are talking about prestige of an overall university" - you don't get to cherry pick the more-prestigious parts as you see fit, sorry.</p>
<p>"stating that northwestern is as well known around the country and around the globe is a bit of a stretch."</p>
<p>-Who said this??? Certainly not I. Please show me where I said anything remotely close to "Northwestern is as will-known around the country and around th globe." If anything I said that few schools are well known around the country, and most prestigious schools have places where they are MORE prestigious - Both Berkeley and Northwestern are included in this list. Ask John Doe on the streets of Chicago about Northwestern and Berkeley, and I promise you, Northwestern will, overall, be seen as more prestigious. I'd expect the same from Berkeley in California, or Penn in Philadelphia, etc.</p>
<p>You guys will end up like my father. He just applied to some $25 an hour tutoring job even though he hasn't worked in ten years. As far as I can tell, his sole goal was to impress the random person doing hiring with his prestigious degrees, since the chance doesn't often come up to drop them in casual conversation.</p>
<p>I have to say that the guy next door in most of the US will have no idea how prestigious Berkeley or Northwestern is, but he will have heard of Berkeley because of all the hippies there. He will likely assume that Northwestern is in Oregon.
Let me put it this way: among people who can be expected to know something about the quality of education at schools, "prestige" and quality will be more closely linked. Among other people, only those schools that are truly nationally famous for being top schools will have this kind of prestige (HYPSM).
Other schools are nationally famous for other reasons--for sports, for example. Here's another example--everybody's heard of Kent State, but virtually nobody would know about its academic quality. Does that equal "prestige?"
To go back to the service academies for a second, I would argue that they have plenty of fame and prestige, but it's not precisely because of academic quality. I can tell you that there are plenty of employers who would, other things being more or less equal, hire a West Point or Annapolis grad over somebody from Northwestern, Berkeley, Baylor, or Tulane.</p>
<p>Hunt,
I want to strongly second your comments on the service academies. I have hired and worked with many over the years and regard for them personally could not be higher. Smart, disciplined, respectful of and generally work well with others, driven, great moral and ethical standards...the list of adjectives could go on and on. I have rarely been unimpressed with any student, either intellectually or personally, who makes it through either of these places. I agree that these schools have great prestige and highest name recognition in America.</p>
<p>I think among those who are familiar with colleges, Northwestern and Berkeley are viewed equal for undergrad. But for overall prestige, I'd have to concede that Berkeley wins (although NU holds its own in econ and business).</p>
<p>ultra cali,
I guess we just disagree on the level of UC Berkeley prestige in other parts of the country. Please don't interpret my comments as knocking the school-I just think that folks in other parts of the country have a lower level of familiarity with the college, particularly for undergrad. It's not like kids are walking the halls of schools in the East thinking constantly about UC Berkeley the way that they do for schools in their own backyard. Or that employers in the East are asking if there are any steps that they can take to increase their recruiting presence at UC Berkeley. It's not a lack of respect, it is just not in the front of their brains and in their media all the time the way that it would be for a student or an employer from California.</p>
<p>hawkette said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I just think that folks in other parts of the country have a lower level of familiarity with the college, particularly for undergrad.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are probably correct, just as the folks outside of the NE think Penn has a football coach named JoePa. However, I just don't think you can clearly disassociate the undergrad from the grad. Part of what makes H, Y & S world-class institutions are their grad programs. HBS, YLS, and Stanford eng are arguable tops in the world. That's not to say that the undergard at Cal is super strong, but the reputation (or prestige, to use the OP's term) of the college is built on the whole University, which includes grad schools. As long as Cal has a few of its own cells on the Periodic Table of Elements, it will maintain a brand worldwide, at least in the science fields.</p>
<p>bluebayou,
Agreed about the prestige of the entire institution. However, just think about a student who grows up in LA or Phoenix or Dallas or New Orleans or Tampa or wherever and dreams of attending Harvard or Princeton or Yale. The LA student might also have dreamed about attending UC Berkeley as an undergrad, but that likely is not the case with the other cities. However, clearly top level students from all over the country and all over the world dream of pursuing their graduate studies at UC Berkeley. And that is a major reason why the school has such a high level of prestige.</p>
<p>ultracali- i think berkeley's reputation in the east is probably similar to a school like tufts' reputation in the west. From where I'm from, Tufts is considered to be one of the top schools and Berkeley probably wouldn't get the same reaction from your local mailman. Contrast that to the reaction you'd get comparing those two schools out west. Besides a very small handful of schools, most institutions are familiar only regionally. Ask a stranger on the subway in New York whether they are more familiar with Rice or Cal Tech versus Brandeis or Boston College? Familiarity begets esteem in this case.
But does it really matter to you what the 'average' person thinks? Any company or grad school worth applying to will realize a great school, whether it be a small Haverford or a large Wisconsin, when they see it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The LA student might also have dreamed about attending UC Berkeley as an undergrad, but that likely is not the case with the other cities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is only if same students "dream" about a college solely for its prestige (which is the focus of this thread). In-state kids may prefer Cal (or UT or UMich) bcos they are half the cost of any private school. However, OOS kids would have to pay nearly the same price to attend Cal as they would HYPSM. Thus, it may not be a prestige-thing, per se, but just sound,family economics to attend a private.</p>
<p>UC Berkeley is VERY respected on the east coast. Even though it is a state school, we are smart enough to know that it is an outstanding school, very well thought of by academia and employers, alike. We do not have such a stellar state system here in NY, but we know a good think when we see it. And Berkeley is a phenomenal school, with phenomenal respect, here in the east. We also know that its grad schools cannot be beaten, which certainly enhances the quality of their undergrad experience. C'mon. UC Berkeley is a standout, and considered to be so, here in the east. Geez. Everyone is not as ill-informed as some might think.</p>
<p>"Familiarity begets esteem in this case."</p>
<p>In my county (semi-rural, republican, mixed professional and blue collar), I think a typical prestige list would look something like this:</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Case Western</li>
<li>Yale (Bush went there ... people know it exists)</li>
<li>THE Ohio State University</li>
<li>Miami University of Ohio </li>
<li>U of Michigan (sports rival of OSU)</li>
<li>Ohio University</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon</li>
<li>University of Florida (kids who hate snow go there)</li>
<li>Cleveland State University (I KNOW what tier it is, people have heard of it)</li>
</ol>
<p>Other schools people MIGHT have heard of:
USC
RPI
RIT
Michigan State
University of Pittsburgh
Cornell
Penn State
Oberlin
The other Ohio State schools (Kent, Bowling Green, etc.)
MIT
Stanford
Princeton
UCLA</p>
<p>Schools that almost no one is familiar with:
Columbia (why would anyone want to do to NY?)
Dartmouth
Brown
University of Chicago
WUSTL (how do you pronounce that???)
UPenn (don't you mean Penn State???)
Caltech
William, Amhearst, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, William and Mary etc.
Berkeley</p>