Rank of Nation's Top High Schools

Parents Forum
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<p>sgiovinc....wow, I could have written your entire post and signed my name. Holds true for me and my family's experience. I DO believe it is the KID who gets into college, not the school they are coming from. I don't know how else to explain my child's acceptances at selective colleges coming from an unknown, somewhat rinky dink rural public high school that supposedly would not measure up by the standards being used here for "top high schools". While I agree that kids in some of the elite private prep schools have an edge in admissions and surely are represented a LOT at my D's college, and I don't doubt that they got what many would consider a "better" education, I still believe that the student him/herself is who gets into college and not just where they came from. Top colleges are looking for as you say, "the best and the brightest". I guess my kid did not have the "advantages" of coming from a "top" high school or known private, and clearly kids from those type of schools have a high rate of admission to top colleges, but she and many others like her, still get in, hopefully based on WHO they are, not what school they came from. </p>

<p>Surely kids from such school backgrounds CAN succeed in these elite college environments among their many private school or "top public" school counterparts. I know my D has gotten top grades thus far in her first semester at an Ivy league school because she is a hard worker, motivated learner and is capable. So far, her supposedly "rinky dink" high school has prepared her well enough to succeed because she is a learner who strives for challenge and to achieve and her high school background surely has not stood in her way. </p>

<p>I also have to question the criteria being used to rate these high schools, particularly the one on how many AP courses they offer, as if that really is the epitome of a good education! Our high school, until recently, barely offered any AP courses, maybe one. However, we have HONORS courses that are VERY challenging. Recently, they changed the title of four courses to now be given the AP designation (though they are not taught any differently than when they were called Honors). They do NOT teach to the AP exams. They are not test or fact oriented. They are heavy on writing. In fact, I am not sure how well a student would do on the AP test after these courses and my D did not take them at the end of last year except in math after taking a long distance course through JHU. </p>

<p>Right now my younger D is in an integrated Honors course called American Studies that combines US History and American Literature and is considered just about the hardest course in that high school. She said recently that the teachers are hoping kids take the AP exam, though the course has no official AP designation. My older D only took AP exams in Calculus though took the most rigorous courses at our high school, including the four eventually designated AP. What I can say is that the challenge of these Honors courses and the level of writing required, has prepared her well for Brown. She has said that lots of what she learned in those courses has come in very handy in her current college courses. Her college courses are extremely challenging, according to her but she also has had to think and write analytically throughout these very challenging high school courses. I read many posts on here of those attending FAR better rated high schools with umpteen AP courses and all this prep for end of year testing, etc......and it is far different than here but frankly, I think my kids appear to be well prepared for college, have written likely a lot more than many kids I read about here in these AP courses, and at least one of them has succeeded in her college admissions to selective schools and been able to fare well since arriving on campus. </p>

<p>Like Sgio, many of my child's current friends at Brown, her roomie included, went to elite prep schools. She fits in just fine, though comes from a community and school, different than many of these kids. I do believe it is about the kid, not their high school. Anyway, Sgio's child's experience and the post he wrote, mirrors my own kids' as well. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Hi, Susan. I am Sgiovinc1 and I am a female just like you!! And named Susan as well! Just an aside....</p>

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<p>That US News article made me NUTS, because the criteria was interesting, but then to title the article "The best High Schools in America" was absurd!</p>

<p>As I recall, the author developed something he called the "Challenge Index" which was a measure of how much the schools challenged their students. I think he counted up the total number of AP tests taken and divided by the number of seniors. In addition to all the obvious problems with this methodology and the ridiculous leap of using it to identifty the "best" shools, I realized if you had an enrollment bubble in your junior class and a small size senior class this could bias the index in your favor. Also a school could easily manipulate this index by encouraging kids to take tests they were not prepared for. </p>

<p>In New Jersey, the NJ monthly magazine ranks high schools according to a wide variety of objective criteria. The rankings are very closely watched by real estate agents, and to a lesser extent by parents. Not sure if colleges look at them. Our HS ranking improved dramatically over a 3 yr period because the school board changed a few things that were measured by the magazine. (Changes were NOT made with the rankings in mind). Changes included in an increase in school day. </p>

<p>As far as the "garbage in - garbage out" theory, I recall many years ago it was quite a scandal in Bethesda MD when several recent graduates of the local high school (BCC - a very highly regarded public hs) complained that their HS was actually horrible. Students slept through classes and learned nothing from lazy teachers. The shool's great stats and reputation as a "good" school were purely a function of smart kids with smart parents who test well and get into good colleges. The trigger for the complaints apparently was that the kids were totally unprepared for the workload when they got to college. ummmmm....this could have been in the late 70s! :lol:</p>

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<p>Add mine to that list. "Rinky-dink" pretty much describes our HS, too, yet I've had one kid graduate at a top LAC, the other starting at an Ivy. I actually think their HS helped them--it's obvious that they did not get the laundry list of advantages that Mini describes--little GC support, few APs, uneven levels of instructions, much less variation of ECs possible, low HS SAT averages, etc, etc. So, their accomplishments fully belong to them, and I think that the colleges recognized that.</p>

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<p>Thanks Alexandre for organizing the links!</p>

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<p>good schools in Canada?</p>

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<p>My S's HIGH SCHOOL was SOOOOOO rinky-dink that when he came along...they were so enthused that they did cartwheels and backflips for him. NO kidding! Sometimes I think when they find a kid that has some remote possibilities of making it into a presigious school, they bend over backwards! Seems to lend some diversion to an otherwise mundane job.</p>

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<p>Garland, yes, I recall we have had these discussions in the past on here and your child's educational background is similar to my kids' too. Not until I came onto these forums which by the way has been so educational for many reasons including learning of the great differences in educations around the country and various perspectives...but not until I came here did I ever hear of all these "clubs" and so forth for ECs. We don't nearly have all those here. I would say that the MAIN ECs here are athletics and performing arts with some other small things offered as well but not some long list of "clubs" or academic type teams. Many of the ECs here are heavy duty commitments. Plus kids here also hold jobs often. While our GC is someone we love who is supportive, there is not guidance toward elite admissions or ongoing rapport between our GC and adcoms at selective colleges (a la Gatekeepers) though actually our GC did talk directly to the Yale adcom, not that they knew one another at all though. The SAT avgs. here are similar to the national avg. Sixty-six percent of graduates go onto four year colleges. We do get a few kids into highly selective colleges per year, just nothing like counterparts at so called "top" high schools. For instance, my D's college roomie at Brown comes from an elite prep school where 6 students in her graduating class of 80 got in ED to Brown. Contrast that to our high school graduating class of 155 students where NOBODY got into ANY Ivy but one kid (mine). So, I know the odds are in the favor of kids from so called better high schools but by the same token, I still believe the colleges are looking for students ,not high schools, and I also believe that kids coming from high schools like ours, not only can get accepted at top colleges but can succeed beautifully. I don't think you have to send your kid to an elite prep school to get into a good college, nor to be prepared well for college. My child not only got in, but says she felt quite prepared and has so far shined in her classes at that college. I don't think she is unique by ANY means. </p>

<p>People tend to hone in on "rankings" of high schools and where they must send their child if the child is going to get into a "good college". Then they hone in on "rankings" of colleges. We never read or paid attention to college rankings (not sure where my D's school even ranks on USNews). We surely did not pick our community based on its high school. I must admit our elem school was outstanding and a nationally recognized public school but we did not pick to live here for that either. We live where we do out of choice and while our high school is nothing to write home about, I believe our kids are able to succeed because once again, I think it is the kid who gets into college, not the sending high school. If you are a motivated learner, an academically capable student, an achiever, and so forth, you can succeed, no matter your beginnings. And that also goes for kids who attend "no name" colleges.</p>

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<p>I'll add my two cents as a student at a top ivy. My freshman year roommate went to St. Paul's. There were about 10 kids from his graduating class here. I just assumed it was a huge school and then learned there were just over a hundred in each class! Our next door neighbor was from Andover who had even more students here with a graduating class about twice the size. Still, unbelievable to all of us no name public school kids. The top private schools, not the local ones except a few big name New York City schools, have unbelievable representation at all of the ivies. I must say however, they were the best prepared kids here. My roommate sailed through freshman year while we all adjusted. He had done it all for four years already. Many of these kids are also great athletes. Those schools have great coaches and make everyone play a sport. They have also all studied abroad during high school, had great summer jobs and just done more things that kids that age usually haven't done. If I can afford it, I'm sending my kids to those schools.</p>

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<p>My daughter ( younger) attended a K-12 public school about 70 kids per grade ( about the same as the private prep school her sister attended)
If she had stayed there it would have been fairly easy to be in top 10% of students as their overall academic performance was compartively low.
Much harder to be in top 10% of her high school with about 400 kids per class and more National Merit Scholars than any school in the state.( Ok sometimes Lakeside has more but they are handpicked to attend that school ;) )
However we felt that the bottom line was to get the best education we could find for her, not what percentage of the class she was going to be in.
I agree that a motivated student can procure a good education just about anywhere, especially with outside support, and there are students who graduate from the former school who get into competitive schools, but I wonder how much of that is because it is unusual to have a public K-12 school, and it is also not as difficult as it could be to be ranked in top 10. I know several students who really struggled in college, and I wonder if grade inflation was to blame or that college was going to be that big step up anyway.( some of that also is being accepted to schools that aren't really a good match. Students from the larger high school are accepted to very competitive colleges every year, but not all of them do well. Their grades and scores are fine, but more to a good fit than numbers)</p>

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<p>I believe that because the adcoms are looking for students, they ARE looking for high schools. (And I think the data strongly bear this out.) If they can find a school that can be a regular feeder to them of qualified, affable, smart, EC-filled, non-needy students who will someday contribute heavily to the alumni development base, they would be NUTS not to give them preferential treatment. Especially since that is what funds low-income admits over the long-term.</p>

<p>First Smith, and then Amherst have demonstrated how difficult it is to go out find, recruit, and fund low-income candidates from schools that are not regular "feeders" over the long term. It is expensive, in time and energy and cold hard cash (I demonstrated in another forum how, over 2,500 students, Smith commits literally double the amount of financial aid to qualified applicants than Yale does), and requires a rethinking of admissions requirements/advantages/measurement scales as well. It is much easier just not to have to think about it. It become self-fulfillings prophecy. </p>

<p>And if the Andovers of the world couldn't preferentially deliver on the HYP promise, they wouldn't have folks beating down their doors to spend big bucks on them. But as "value-added" goes....</p>

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<p>Just needed to add:</p>

<p>If we believe schools should have high standards, perhaps we should start with these: </p>

<p>• Schools without rat, mouse, and ****roach infestations;
• Schools where the roofs don’t leak;
• Schools without broken windows, and windows that actually work;
• Schools where heating systems work, and temperature can be controlled;
• Schools without defective and dangerous electrical systems;
• Schools where all the toilets work;
• Schools where bathroom floors are not wet and sticky and do not smell of human waste;
• Schools with drinking water;
• School with safe drinking water;
• Schools where every student has a textbook;
• Schools where students have a qualified teacher for an entire year;
• Schools without multi-track schedules, and where students can actually attend for an entire school year;
• Schools where there is one desk per student, and students don’t have to take turns sitting down;
• Schools where indoor air quality meets occupational health and safety standards for adults.</p>

<p>Fewer than half of the nation’s public schools currently meet these standards. Forget educational content!</p>

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<p>Id like to add schools where no student is expected to learn on an empty stomach
Schools where students are not afraid of being harrassed or assaulted
Schools where students are not segregated by race
Students of normal or higher intelligence are not sequestered because they have learning differences or speak another language.</p>

<p>Schools which are seen as a priority by the township,state and country and are appropriately funded.</p>

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<p>I guess we can always voucher our way into the better equipped and better maintained schools...if we let the Republicans have their way!</p>

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<p>Or, we can use the "No Child Left Behind" School Choice policy and just shove all of the kids from the "bad" schools into the ONE well-run school in the area.....</p>

<p>It happened here...we have one public school in my neighborhood that was a rising star....concerned and active aprents, great teachers, a principal with a vision, great community support, etc......</p>

<p>And along came School Choice - and down went the school.</p>

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<p>Bobbty100 said,</p>

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<p>Bobby you are correct in your observations and if you could afford it, you are entitiled to have this CHOICE. The problem is that not everyone can have this choice which is available to the very few. Less than 2% of the nation's high schoolers are in the private preps of any kind, and much less in these top elite NYC day preps and New England boarding preps, yet they represent from 35% to 45% of each Ivy school. At Yale, 45% of its students are from the private preps, the highest percentage in the 8 Ivies. Yale used to admit the vast majority of its students from just 10 elite New England boarding schools. The Hotchkiss School in Conn., was founded over 150 years ago by the request of a Yale President, specifically as a feeder school for Yale, sending 90% of its grads to Yale alone. The Groton School in Mass. was founded to send its students to Harvard, and in the early 1900s, all but 3 of the more than 450 applicants to Harvard College from Groton, were denied admission. These schools were bastions of privilege. Those days have changed and the mission of these schools have changed, although they are still feeders into the Ivies. Hotchkiss only sends about 5 or 6 to Yale from a graduating class of about 150 each year today. Groton sends about 8 yearly to Harvard from a graduating class of 75. These are still a remarkabably HIGH NUMBERS going to Yale and Harvard, when you consider what the author of "Getting Into the Ivy Gates" said:</p>

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<p>The problem is that not everyone from Podunk, USA has this choice. I am sure that, when given this choice without the financial burdens, many will opt for the opportunity to attend one of these schools. I'll bet few will turn it down as Chinamen, the poster, has often stated. You would have to be insane not to go to one of these schools, IF YOU HAD THE CHOICE TO DO SO.</p>

<p>The boarding prep experience is much like the collegiate experience at an earlier stage for the preppie and that's why "they were the best prepared kids", as you said. This experience is invaluable in "prepping" for college.</p>

<p>If we were all egalitarians and lived in Utopia, then all would be equal and all would have this choice of whether or not to attend the private preps. Unfortunately, we all do not live in Utopia, and not everyone has the choice, except for a lucky few.</p>

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<p>why are the schools so different in your area?
I think that NCLB is also supposed to allow for additional support of the schools to meet standards, but I am too lazy to read what that actually means.</p>

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<p>emerald-</p>

<p>we have "pockets"....it's a very odd area. We have multi-million dollar homes on one block and povery level families in row homes on the next........it makes things very interesting, for sure. I'm not sure how this one school rose so far above the rest, but it did. However, I've heard that ever since school choice came into play, it's been downhill. </p>

<p>We've got some great new schools openning lately. I guess they're Charter schools where groups of homeschool parents have decided to take in more kids..... But, they're hard to get into because everyone is jumping ship from the overcrowded publics and much too expensive privates. It's a mess.</p>

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<p>we just voted for the third time not to allow any charter schools .
I voted for it actually, cause I would like to see more responsiveness on parts of districts to student need, although I didn't know till last minute how I was going to vote.
However it won't be going on the ballot for a long time now.
We have to do something though.
Schools are underfunded, and students are not guarenteed placement in the closest school. Private schools are packed, the ones my daughter attended have a 11% to 18% admittance rate, and that is for people willing and able to spend almost $20,000 for a day school. For that kind of money, I want room and board!</p>

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<p>If you have windows that open, there is safe drinking water, there are seats, each student has a book, and there isn't human waste on the floor in the bathroom, be grateful. (most kids attend schools where they can't say that.)</p>