<p>JEEZ! That’s a huge jump for 2010…</p>
<p>Would be interesting to know the # of ACT tests taken…</p>
<p>Yale Common Data Set 2009-10 (Page 9)
C9. Percent and number of first-time, first-year (freshman) students enrolled in fall 2009 who submitted national standardized (SAT/ACT) test scores.
<a href=“http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds.pdf[/url]”>http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds.pdf</a></p>
<p>ACT Score Distributions, Cumulative Percentages (CP1), and Score Averages
Year 2009 (Page 10)
<a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/09/pdf/National2009.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/news/data/09/pdf/National2009.pdf</a>
Year 2008 (Page 10)
<a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/08/pdf/National2008.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/news/data/08/pdf/National2008.pdf</a>
Year 2007 (Page 10)
<a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/National2007.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/National2007.pdf</a></p>
<p>Here is a telling and informative Q & A with Jeffrey Brenzel, Yale’s Dean of Admissions, from a column that ran in the NY Times in December 08. Three other schools admissions directors also respond: Q and A:College Admissions </p>
<p>Mr. Brenzel specifically answers questions about the importance of essays and about what part of the admissions process is most misunderstood. Both of these responses should shed light on your question.</p>
<p>Ooops! My link to NY Times didn’t work. Let me try again: [Q</a>. and A.: College Admissions - NYTimes.com](<a href=“Q. and A.: College Admissions - The New York Times”>Q. and A.: College Admissions - The New York Times)</p>
<p>GPA and SAT merely weed out 25% - 30% of Yale Applicants.
The interview is something else that simply weeds out a decent number of applicants.</p>
<p>IMO: Test scores, GPA, and the interview qualify you to be a serious applicant while hooks, ECs, and essays get you in.</p>
<p>I’m not qualified to give expert advice like some of the people on this forum, but I’d say-</p>
<p>For kids at regular public-schools:
SAT > GPA > EC’s > Recs > Essays > Interview</p>
<p>For kids at competitive public & private schools:
GPA > SAT > EC’s > Recs > Essays > Interview</p>
<p>As previously stated in this thread, SAT is the only way Yale can compare kids at subpar high schools with everyone else on a national scale. A 4.0 GPA at my public HS versus a 3.8 GPA at Andover are two different things entirely - obviously, the latter is more impressive. So, although the order above is probably somewhat accurate in most scenarios, you have to remember; context, context, context. What’s most important for one applicant may be less important for another.</p>
<p>thanks for the info teachcounsel! that was really helpful</p>
<p>so it follows for yale, guys: </p>
<p>transcript>recs>SATs>ECs>essays>interview</p>
<p>isnt that unfortunate</p>
<p>Re this and other similar threads, from the same interview with Jeffrey Brenzel:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Stop trying to find “the formula”; go out and do something.</p>
<p>Right on, JHS</p>
<p>I have a contrarian view of this. I am very skeptical that essays, recs, or interviews make much difference for any but a tiny percentage of applicants–those for whom the essay, rec or interview reveals something either extraordinarily good or bad that doesn’t appear elsewhere on the application.
Think about recs: most are not seen by the student, and many are from teachers that the college knows nothing about. How do you compare a rec from teacher A that says “Joey is the best student I’ve ever had the opportunity to teach” and a rec from teacher B at another school that says “Billy is a fine student.”-? You can’t. If teacher A reveals that Joey achieved top grades despite being sick with cancer, and it’s not on the app elsewhere, maybe.
Similarly for essays: the fact that it is very well written doesn’t mean much, because you can’t tell the process by which it was written. (If it’s bad, it can hurt.) Only if it transmits information that’s not elsewhere could it make a big difference, in my opinion.
Finally, for interviews: The reactions of alumni may be easier to compare than those of unknown teachers, but not much easier. Again, something really bad may hurt you.</p>
<p>I think, therefore, that what matters the most is stats and documented personal achievement in ECs, preferably outside the school setting.</p>
<p>Hunt, I disagree with you.</p>
<p>First off, I think in many, many cases the admissions rep at a college will know a lot about certain schools, and even certain teachers, in his area. Year-in and year-out, I bet 95% of the kids admitted to Yale from this region come from one of maybe 20-30 schools, each of which sends multiple applications every year. The area rep probably knows those schools fairly well, including the teachers who write many of the recs. </p>
<p>I also don’t think it’s a question of Teacher A saying “This is one of the best students ever”, and the college saying “Oh, one of the best students ever! Admit!” or even “If Teacher A says this is one of the best students ever, admit!” If Teacher A says, "This is one of the best students ever, and here’s how I know . . . " followed by detailed and convincing reasons, that’s really powerful. How many teachers do that? Probably not that many. What’s the success rate of the ones that do, when they really believe what they are saying? Pretty darn high. Not 100%, but way more than background noise.</p>
<p>On essays, you would be right if they got enough great essays to fill up a class. But I bet they don’t. Of course, I don’t read all of the essays Yale receives, but I have read a bunch of application essays in my time, and ones I thought were great really, really stood out. I think lots of kids get in despite having mediocre essays, when they have great everything else. But essays – even if you have questions about who really wrote them – are still perhaps the richest, most convincing information about who a kid is in the application. It’s actual performance, not someone else’s capsule review or rating of an earlier performance. As such, it can’t help but provide information not provided elsewhere in the application – even if in most cases that information is “This kid is a lot more boring than her record suggests.”</p>
<p>it still can’t counter the fact that transcript and recs are what yale says the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS they look at in admission. booo haha…</p>
<p>and JHS, thanks! but i’m not trying to find a formula here. Really, the whole purpose of this thread was to help me gauge how much hope i should have for yale (right now im thinking, maybe 10-20% at most haha). im sure this thread will be immensely helpful for others doing the same thing; i know that since apps are coming up and everyone’s nervous about decisions, we’re all trying to set up ourselves up for rejection. i know i am at least. </p>
<p>plus, there’s not much i can “do” at this point that would make much of a difference! :)</p>
<p>I heard from someone who works in the admission at an ivy league school that the essays are the most important, if theyre beyond amazing/perfect you might get it even with mediocre or bad (not horrible aka 1000 lol) SATs.</p>
<p>
But whose performance is it? That’s what I can’t get past. I simply don’t believe that the essay readers can tell the degree to which a student’s essay has been edited (or even written) by others.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I hate that so much. I’m not enlisting any help whatsoever with my essay, and I think it should be that way with everyone.</p>
<p>^^ Every good writer, including every professional, has a good editor. There is nothing wrong with asking someone else to read your essay, offer comments and suggestions, and proofread. The line gets crossed when someone else actually takes over the writing process.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I know, but I thought (though correct me if I’m wrong) that essays are to be written in the student’s voice and communicate something personal and meaningful. For a college to best evaluate a candidate, I think the essay writing should be entirely up to the student. I mean, we’ve had twelve years of grammar and writing preparation - we should be able to write our own essay, proofread it, and know whether or not it’s a good representation of ourselves. I acknowledge that I may sound paranoid and perhaps a little selfish; but when you think about it, this is not a team assignment. It’s something you should do on your own so colleges can get the most honest view of who you are as a person. And regarding grammar and strength of writing, I think colleges need to see who is a good writer and who isn’t. I know some kids who are bad writers but enlisted help that made their essay sound more eloquent - is that really fair? Colleges want the honest portrait of the applicant, and I think that ought to include the applicant’s writing skills and ability to develop an argument, both of which should come entirely from the candidate, and both of which rarely ever do entirely.</p>
<p>Phew. That was tiresome. :)</p>
<p>
Really, the only way to achieve this would be to have essays written in a controlled setting, like the SAT Writing essay. Otherwise, the colleges are looking at a lot of essays, with no way to tell which ones have been heavily edited by others. I think they are fooling themselves if they think they can tell which ones have been edited and which ones are “genuine,” except at the margins where the kid has low English grades and poor recommendations, but a sparkling essay.</p>
<p>Can’t colleges see the SAT essay? If they can, but don’t, I question how interested the really are in essays.</p>
<p>Hunt: you bring up good points about the failings of a student essay and its limitation as an evaluative tool. However, Yale and others will continually tell you that selective college admissions is an art and not a science. Going into it all, they know there’s going to be lots of subjectivity involved in the selection process. </p>
<p>Submitting essays, hoping to inject some “aha” nugget is, and will be for the foreseeable future, one of the ways that students can stand out among the 29K applications. Does this unfairly favor certain applicants over others? Surely. But I can’t see a reasonable alternative.</p>
<p>Decrescendo wrote: "I’m not enlisting any help whatsoever with my essay, and I think it should be that way with everyone. "</p>
<p>Personally, I find nothing wrong with having people read a draft and give comment. I think it’s important for people to be swayed from sounding un-authentic, preachy, off subject, whatever. Why shouldn’t someone hope to be steered away from a potential poison pill for their application to one of the most prestigious schools on their list? Your confidence for you is fine but don’t look down upon others. And I’m certainly not defending wholesale ghost writing by others. I’m referring to having others proof for content and tone.</p>