Reality check: What's it actually like at ____ now that your kid is enrolled ?

I’m starting this thread specifically to hear from some of the veterans on the board whose kids who completed this process and are already enrolled in (or have recently graduated from) the schools the rest of us are still hoping for or applying to.

Now that your kid has a semester or a few years under their belt, what’s it really like there?

To make it easy to read and follow, think of a bulleted list of pros and cons (no more than 3-4 each). Not things we would hear from the brochures, but your kid’s reality check on what is in the brochures or what you heard and thought initially.

You do NOT need to address all of these, but some things to think about as you come up with your short list of what you and your kid love and what you’re not so crazy about:

– Environment (supportive, competitive, friendly, cliquish, etc.);
– Facilities (quality & number of practice rooms, school instruments, libraries, dorms, gyms or athletic facilities, student union or common areas);
– Performance opportunities (as part of the program, as extracurriculars on campus, or side gigs);
– Faculty (accessibility, style – supportive, demanding, etc., skill; anyone particularly amazing who’s made a difference for your kid or if there is someone to avoid and people should PM you if considering the school!);
– Cross-departmental opportunities (is there cross-pollination between opera and musical theater, music and theater, or classical and contemporary, for example, or is it more siloed);
– Academics (workload, difficulty, ratio of music-to-gen-ed requirements, course offerings);
– Social life (what does your kid do for fun; are there non-musical things to do; does campus shut down on weekends; opportunities to meet and hang out with non-musicians, etc.);
– Actual cost of living (were the estimates correct, pleasant or unpleasant surprises, tips);
– The larger community (safety, things to do in the town or city, availability of off-campus housing, if a university or LAC how the rest of the school impacts the vibe);
– Happiness (does your kid merely like it or really love it – or neither, how about other kids – what’s the attrition rate).

– Anything else your kid talks about or you’ve observed (campus food, airport/travel hassles every semester, weather, size of program, whatever!)

It would also be great to hear: Was this originally your kid’s first choice, back-up plan, or something in-between?

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I think this is a great topic. I keep all my notes on this topic in the GoForth Journal, starting about here:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20820268/#Comment_20820268

Thanks @GoForth! I’m hoping if a lot of people respond, it can become a pinned post. (I don’t know how that works on here yet, but I was thinking it would be something almost everyone would want to read). Please encourage anyone you know to chime in!

I think a lot of people’s posting energy disappears after the student begins college. Before S went to school, I felt like there was a missing segment of the college experience description, like it just all ends after school starts. Probbaly people’s doubts and fears mostly vanish, and there is hen less to talk about.

@khill87

Thanks for starting this thread! I would be interested in knowing more about students in music (and specifically VP and/or cello performance) at NEC, Baldwin Wallace, Lawrence University and Luther College—just my wish list!

I’m curious about the balance of music and gen ed coursework, how well students felt prepared by the curriculum for graduate school/professional work/life in general, and whether they’d had enough friends, performing opportunities, the atmosphere was collaborative or competitive, they were ahead/behind in coursework, their expectations were met, costs went up a lot or a little each year, etc.

That’s it!

I always have something to say. I won’t do it for a school since it’s been too long for my D. But here are a few comments about “the reality” that most students will experience regardless the school. Note my D studied VP.

A music degree is hard. It is hard in 3 ways: time, academics, performance.

Time: Freshman year may be more comfortable as you enter a program as a lowly Freshman after Senior year in high school where you were “doing it all”. But that short hiatus won’t last. By Sophomore year, your kid should be busy…maybe not to the wide degree as in high school (other academics, music, extracurriculars)…but to a deep, intense degree with music. It’s the deep dive into music with other students who may be brilliant (while you are simply very talented) that creates the need to work very hard…which takes a lot of time daily. At most selective schools you can go as deep as you like…it’s the time available that is the only inhibitor.

Academics: While some students may sail through early theory, most students will find a music class or two or three where they will need to buckle down and work really hard. Remember everyone in these classes is talented so the level goes up to where talented is simply the base line. While my D was fine with theory and music skills classes in general, there was always one area of study causing some stress most semesters … like atonal theory … or early aural skills classes (with a dreaded B looming…a new experience for some). Also she had to write a lot of papers. If you are in rehearsals for a major performance (where you want to do well in front of faculty and peers), have an atonal theory test the same week and are writing a mid-term paper in music lit, your life will be extremely difficult (with no parent to do your laundry). Remember some scholarships require a certain GPA to keep them. And note that every activity listed is MUSIC. Nothing else. Once gen eds are done it’s all music at a high level.

Performance (ensembles): No matter how big the “kumbaya” feeling is at the school, when you are auditioning along side your talented classmates/friends/roommates and being placed at different levels (or not yet), it can be tough…even for a secure student. How couldn’t it be? While all schools offer everyone opportunities (I believe), not all opportunities are ranked the same in students’ eyes. The pressure to find success in performing (particularly as an upper classman) and not be “wasting time and money in college” is real. All students have to mange through the ups and downs of ensemble/performance placement. And of course there are juries to worry about too. So the pressure to advance in performance continues. You never get to sit back and relax.

Regardless, most kids will like/love their school, faculty, environments etc. My D did (she never “loved” it as my D always has a rock in her shoe…so I go for the strong like). And yes, there was the crappy dorm (my D got the bad one on campus…but so did many of her friends so it was a bonding thing), crappy food (she only had a meal plan the first year bc the food was terrible…her opinion…but I believe her), a mean, unfair faculty member/TA (I’m sure she mentioned one or two along the way), the “stupid” IT problems (which made me mad) and a cute town that was not a city (had to remind her it was her choice). But these issues paled in comparison to the academic and ensemble rigors of the school…which impacts time and advancement. Trust me … if your kid unexpectantly finds a spare hour, the school will excitedly announce a master class, a recital and a zero credit class requirement the same day. I have never heard that finding opportunities is a problem. It’s finding time…and managing the feelings around getting (jealousy) and not getting (frustration) the coveted opportunities…that pose the biggest challenges imho. I would guess that these issues exist to a degree at all selective schools.

So how to survive? Peers…and a fun environment where your kid can blow off steam…even when they don’t have time. Don’t underestimate the gut feeling of your student for the peer group and environment. It is important for them to have something outside of the music school to do…be it a rec center or bike paths or a fun pizza joint or house parties or a few nice restaurants for dinner before a ballet (something my D enjoyed)…hanging with friends and having some social outlets is important. They will also form a future network. All schools will offer lots of opportunities and stress, just be sure it’s somewhere that offers fun too.

Hopefully others, with kids still in college, can reply more specifically to your questions. Regardless I thought that this could be helpful.

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Wonderful topic! My eldest son attends UNT, he’s not a music major but still participates in one of the lower bands because he loves to play. He’s thriving at the school and really enjoys everything but the food.

My youngest son is a music major (bassoon) and has so far been accepted to UNT, University of Houston, SMU and University of Texas (Austin).

Would truly appreciate any insight into the latter three schools.

@jadehaven - My S runs the Maple Jam on thursday nights (I believe starting at 5:30 pm) at the UNT Maple cafeteria, where all are invited to play.

@Pikachu’s Mom I went to Luther College and graduated almost two years ago with a degree in viola performance. I was definitely so busy during my time there, but I felt like I could balance my school duties with orchestra and practicing and work study. However, I know that I could have practiced more :))
In terms of balance between music courses and general education courses, I balanced them out by following the music major sequence (I can PM you a link to the music major handbook if you would like) and making sure I had at least one general education requirement taken care of per semester. I feel like the curriculum certainly prepared me for graduate school, though I did take a remedial music history course my first semester of grad school due to differences in sequences (depends on the grad school, though). Social wise, I personally had a very lonely college experience (I struggled with social anxiety when I was at Luther and still struggle with it), but I know so many people that met at Luther and stayed friends after graduation. Costs do go up per year, but I guess that might be expected when you go to a liberal arts college. I feel that the atmosphere was collaborative, or at least my studio was collaborative, but some other instruments/voice types may be more competitive. I also know of several people who were in both orchestra and choir, so that’s possible. I hope that helps!
(Edit: got username wrong and added preparedness for grad school)

GoForth, I will pass that good info along. My son is a seriously good clarinet player. He dropped symphony this semester because he couldn’t stand playing with people who sound like they just picked up their instruments yesterday.- which is what you’re left with if you’re not a music major at UNT. He still takes lessons and practices on a regular basis, he might like an opportunity to play with good musicians and make new friends. Many thanks!

Bridgenail - that was tremendously helpful, thank you for the general insight into what all of our music majors will experience.

@bridgenail
Thank you! Your write-up of what to expect was actually so helpful! Of course, as a mom, I worry about her finding the right place, but your post reminded me that most music kids go through the same things. That in itself was a good thing to remember. So appreciate the ‘reality check’ and am excited for D to make the most of her opportunities.

@journeytothepast
Thank you for answering. I think I have seen the music major handbook on the web site, so should be good there, and I am glad to hear you were able to balance it all AND make it to grad school! I know each individual journey can be so different. Good to hear your studio was collaborative—that’s something I know my D will appreciate if she finds it. And your point that both orchestra and choir is possible is great! That still seems like a pretty big challenge to juggle. I know a few Luther grads who were happy with their experiences, although these were not music majors, so thank you so much for that perspective!

I pinned this post with the hope that it will gain traction and be useful to others in the coming seasons. Words of caution: please do not list specific teachers/profs by name, or if the department is small (as in one teacher), don’t mention it at all. You can PM each other with those details, but I will remove any posts where profs are identifiable.

@“Mezzo’sMama” Thank you for pinning!

To anyone posting: Please try to start your post with just a few pros and cons for each school at the top so it will be skimmable for folks trying to get some quick info. (If you have more thoughts to add below those, that’s great!)

So for example (all of these things are made up, BTW!):

"School:
We’re at X University, which was neither a reach nor a safety for S, but in the middle of the pack. Overall S seems happy now that he is there and settled, although he was lukewarm for the first month or two.

Pros:
Most faculty are really caring and nurturing so far; collaborative feeling among students; health center was amazing when my S broke his ankle; workload that was billed as “intense” has turned out to be really reasonable – less work than high school for S

Cons:
Difficulty getting practice rooms in the dorms; one teacher of an important first-year course was really kind of mean and that caused a lot of unnecessary stress; most students leave campus on weekends which can make things pretty lonely for those who remain in the dorms" (again – all of that is an example, totally made up)

And then… please give any other details you want!

I want to amplify MezzoMama’s point that it’t not always advisable to mention teachers, or even institutions by name. The music world is very small.

But I also want to make the point that what seem like important amenities right now may not turn out to be critically important to a student’s future as a professional. For example, my daughter went to Conservatory X (if you want to know the name of the school, PM me.) Going down the list:

–Environment was competitive, cliquish, even cold, if you want to be honest. Even her beloved teacher confessed to having struggled socially during her own undergrad years there.
–Performance opportunities as part of the program were scarce. Yes, there were orchestra cycles with required performances, and performance classes (generally not open to the public), and a senior recital, but recitals for the other three years were by lottery due to lack of space and my daughter never got to give a recital during those years. At the time, this seemed like problem. To be honest, I was pretty upset. But now I understand otherwise. There were (for her instrument at least) many gigging opportunities, and some performance fellowships that could be earned by a competitive audition.
–Practice rooms were super-competitive, just like everything else. Most students moved off-campus early and could practice in their apartments, if they were lucky. My daughter lived with friends on the top floor of a walk-up building filled with elderly, hard-of-hearing neighbors, so they lucked out.
–Faculty is world-class, but as for style and accessibility, that depends completely on the teacher.
–Academics were light; there was a potential to take academics outside at a nearby university, but scheduling was extremely difficult.
–The food is awful. I have four kids, all of whom attended their first choice institution (college/university/art school/conservatory) and the food is always awful.
–What is this thing, “social life”? Oh yes, it’s what brings dread and anxiety when we look at other people’s Instagrams. But seriously, there was a time when she’d visit high school friends who were at regular universities and she thought that maybe she’d made a mistake–she could have gone to a place where people had fun, where they partied on weekends and had time to just hang out. It was a valid feeling, and important to question the decision she’d made almost without any thought, pursuing a career she picked when she was ten. As a kid (and now) she’s fun-loving, so being in a place like that was hard.
–COA. The pleasant surprise was that fellowships and other institutional and extracurricular work opportunities were well-funded, making it much easier than one would imagine to meet living expenses. Of course, “work” is the key word here; the parents of students who didn’t or couldn’t take on extra work would shoulder more debt.
–Happiness. My kid was unhappy during much of her BA, and for many reasons, but mostly frustration with her progress (which led to her working hard and progressing a lot) and frustration with a competitive and often cruel (from her perspective) social world. And yet, there was no other place she wanted to be. She stayed there for MM where the social issues seemed less problematic, likely since she and her peers were older. She grew a lot as a musician and took on even more outside work and responsibility. Despite what sometimes seemed like daily misery, this was the place where she grew phenomenally as a musician, thinker, and human being. She made indelible, deep connections that have absolutely informed and progressed her career.

Am I saying your student should pick the school where they think they will mostly likely progress technically and musically without regard for their other needs? Of course not–each student is different, and when making educational decisions it’s important to address the whole person, not just one aspect of that person. But I wanted to point out that what can feel like suffering and discomfort can lead to personal development. Dealing with crazy, often frenetic schedules; dealing with less-than-ideal environments for practice and study; dealing gracefully with people who are not easy to get along with or to please–these are great skills for a professional musician. The lack of performance opportunities that concerned me so much as a parent-- that turned out to be of no consequence, as now my daughter is performing almost constantly. I now realize that the student recitals are often more of a vanity project to please parents. The senior recital represents a milestone and is in a way a kind of exam; more important were the extracurricular performances (both school-related and outside) and the summer festival performances; these are the career-builders.

My other point is, we want our kids to be happy and to flourish. And it’s painful when they’re unhappy, but sometimes we (and they) can’t know when unhappiness is transient, and when conditions that may seem even insupportable are actually transient, or even a pathway to progress.

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Good idea for a thread and good posts already. And wise general cautions and thoughts from @“Mezzo’sMama” and @glassharmonica .

Here are some observations about my son’s Columbia experience and his choice of an academic program rather than a music school. He is now almost three years out of college and making a living full time with his music. Overall he really loved Columbia and has no regrets about the choice.

The main pros: very supportive music faculty, with whom he still keeps in touch (even though he did not major in music); lessons with an adjunct who is a top professional jazz musician; a critical mass of good student jazz musicians notwithstanding that it’s not a music school; a wealth of music resources in NYC outside the school; top quality academic program and a wide range of classmates with a variety of interests; for junior and senior years, he lived in university housing with other jazz musicians (a residential community called “Jazz House”, which is still going strong); also for junior and senior years, he participated in the Columbia-Juilliard exchange (with a wonderful teacher and great ensembles).

The main con was that juggling an intense academic program with the serious pursuit of music was hard. There were times, particularly during mid-terms and finals each semester, when he had to cut back on the music to keep up with the academics. And it was fairly stressful at times. But the trade offs were worth it for him. Also, practice rooms could be scarce, but he had his ways to address. And he was able to keep a keyboard in his room for most of his time there.

More detail:

  1. My son chose Columbia over some good music school programs (NEC, MSM, New School, Berklee). The music resources that were available in NYC outside of the school played a significant role in the decision. Columbia has a good jazz program for a non-music school, and attracts some very talented jazz musicians, but it worked for my son because he was able to take advantage of both on-campus and off-campus music resources. He hung out and played a fair amount with friends at MSM (just a few blocks from Columbia) as well as at Juilliard (a few subway stops away), was in the New York Youth Symphony jazz band for a year, participated in the Juilliard exchange for two years, and did quite a number of gigs around the city with a variety of musicians, young and old. I’d say at least half and maybe more of his music experiences while in college were outside of Columbia.
  2. After my son chose Columbia, he decided to defer admission for a year so he could have a year to focus solely on music before he had to go back to juggling music and academics. It was a good idea - he developed a lot musically over that year and built a music network in New York that was very valuable to him while in college (and still is). As noted, once he got to college, there were times when he had to cut back the music a little because of academic demands. But I’d guess he still averaged around 3 to 5 hours of music a day, between performing, practicing, lessons, combo rehearsals, music classes and playing with friends. And he spent more time on music during his summers and vacation breaks.
  3. A lot of his social life revolved around music - hanging out with musician friends at Columbia and at the local music schools. But he also had several close friends and a number of more casual friends at Columbia who were not musicians. I think having the wider universe of classmates, as well as the challenging academic courses, were the main factors in his choosing Columbia over a music school. His friends at the music schools say their non-music courses were not very robust.
  4. Most years there are some posters here trying to figure out how to marry academics and music in college and looking in particular at double degree programs to do it. I would defer to those with direct experience in the double degree programs (and the pinned thread about the double degree dilemma is a great resource), but when my son was looking, he had a hard time finding a double degree program that he thought would work for him. In many ways, his path through Columbia gave him more flexibility than a double degree program in marrying the academics and the music, though it did require him to take more initiative in finding his path.
  5. I expect my son could have gotten into a good MM program coming out of Columbia, but he was anxious to be performing full time and didn’t think he needed the MM. If he were a classical musician coming out of an academic program, he probably would have viewed an MM as more necessary.
  6. I’m a believer that there are a lot of paths that can work for a motivated, dedicated and talented musician and that each student has to find his/her own path. Certainly there are a number of terrific young jazz musicians coming out of the “big name” music school programs, but I’ve also heard some terrific young jazz musicians recently from less high profile programs, and yes, even from academic schools like Columbia.
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Dear all, I am grateful for the reminders by @“Mezzo’sMama” and @glassharmonica to be cautious when discussing program experiences. I apologize if my request contributes to that vein of discussion. I have so appreciated everyone’s posts so far, including the latest by @jazzpianodad. These posts have really helped me envision the future life of my musician for the next few years, something I have struggled with as a parent who hasn’t been a full-time musician.

@jazzpianodad
I am glad to hear of your son’s commitment to music in the context of an academically focused undergrad program. It does seem as if the environment contributed the mentors and fellow players that one would expect a music program to have contributed. As he is a jazz musician, I wonder whether your son feels he missed out on theory, arranging, composition, or music history. I have heard that this kind of experience can make it easier to design your own (entrepreneurial) path as a musician. It’s great to hear that your son’s initiative kept him playing so much, though. He must feel confidence having had to exercise that commitment muscle all the time during his undergrad. You must be so proud of him! Thanks for the post.

@jazzpianodad
I’m curious, what did your son major in (you mentioned it wasn’t music), and did he feel it connected at all to his music studies?

@“Pikachu’s Mom” - my son had a pretty good grounding in theory and composition coming into college, and I think he continued to work on theory with his music teachers, both at Columbia and at Juilliard after he got into the exchange. In terms of coursework, he took a graduate level jazz composition and arranging course at Columbia, as well as an undergrad jazz history course. He also did an intensive course in jazz history outside Columbia at Jazz at Lincoln Center and has done a lot of self-directed study of jazz history, including collecting and listening to jazz recordings from all eras of jazz. I think he has as much knowledge of jazz history, maybe more, as anyone coming out of a music school program. As with the other aspects of his music, he pieced together resources both within and outside Columbia to get what he felt he needed.

@albertsax - my son majored in philosophy. In the thread about debunking the myth that fine arts leads to the poorhouse, I joked a few years ago that music was my son’s “practical” pursuit. I don’t really know if he finds a connection between his philosophy and his music. I think mainly he wanted to pursue something that would force him to think and ponder the universe outside music, so maybe it was more a complement to his music endeavors, a connection to the broader range of interests that led him to go to Columbia rather than a music school. Though the title of one of his compositions is named after two characters from a novel by an Austrian philosophical writer, so maybe there was some musical inspiration there too.

@jazzpianodad — wow! Sounds like your son made the most of his opportunities. Your description made me remember how resourceful someone who is truly interested in something can be (and my own joy at discovering the things I was after to learn). Thanks.