REALLY smart daughter can't make up her mind! Help!

Parents Forum
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<p>As OP is new to cc, and just starting to think about colleges for D, it may be good to restate the facts as we’ve learned them:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>A great GPA plus a good SAT is not a match for most of the uber-selective schools. Many of us suggest there simply is no “match” for the IVYs and similar. They are all a reach. In today’s hyper-competitive college admissions climate, a student seems to need some extra push–like Underrepresented Minority, Recruited Athlete, published research, parents donated a BIG building, started a non-profit to feed world poor, the female lead in the Harry Potter films, or equivalent. We know an extremely talented girl who won a national essay contest and appeared on Oprah who wasn’t admitted to any IVY, so EC activities, internships and passion for very particular subject can help, but it’s never a lock. However, these are the kids the adcoms are assessing at the same time they are looking at your kid. It helps to have a realistic idea of what the national talent pool is.</p></li>
<li><p>Since OP’s daughter is smart (which is wonderful, btw), she’ll need higher SAT or ACT scores, SAT IIs and even national science or math awards, or equivalent to successfully compete for the spots at top universities devoted to pure braininess. It’s not that weary cc parents are Score-crazy (or are we?), but it is important to recognize how many highly statted kids do not make it into the most competitive schools year after year. OP might want to look at the threads on cc’s IVY boards for admitted students. One can quickly see how many very talented kids get in, but also how many talented ones do not.</p></li>
<li><p>After all that doom and gloom, a bright note: In some cases, smart girls can have an advantage at top universities that have a lopsided boy/girl ratio. MIT might be a good choice in the reachy category, if she is turned on by math and science. Also Carnegie-Mellon. And CalTech. </p></li>
<li><p>But even in the next tier of schools, like Northwestern, Duke, Wash U, Georgetown, Notre Dame, etc, the OP’s excellent student will need to write essays that display her passion. This summer might be a good time for her to do meaningful volunteer work (if that is her passion), art studies, internships in an area that complements her ECs, or work.</p></li>
<li><p>It sounds like she will get great letters of rec–which will help a lot. But like ellemenope and others above, I would encourage a D who may thrive at a more challenging private university, or be eligible for merit awards, to do test prep and retake the SAT, ACT (in order to better compete for each school’s “pure brains” spots, and to explore her passions in suitable and challenging activities outside of school.</p></li>
<li><p>When checking the admitted student information for colleges, it’s more realistic to look at the top number in their posted 25-75% range. If your student fits at the 75% or above, you’re in a good spot. If not, the other aspects (activities, etc) will have to be stellar. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

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<p>^
Can I second that?</p>

<p>I’ll admit that, upon reading the OP, I thought that the D’s stats, while indeed very good, are not shoe-in quality to top 25-ish schools (then again, is anything?). I applied 3 years ago (I feel so old!) with similar stats (2180 SAT equivalent [took the ACT and actually can’t remember my score–it was a 32-33], 4.0 UWGPA, 12 APs, top 2% weighted GPA, pretty good ECs [relatively rare foreign language and a lot of related competitions, lots of community service and related leadership, Girl Scout Gold Award, etc.], strong–I’m assuming–recs, etc.) and would have considered WUSTL, Vandy, Emory, etc., reaches. I’m not trying to discourage the OP–I’m sure his D will get in to an excellent school and be a strong candidate for a merit aid at a lot of good schools–but this process can be humbling (though much less than the one to apply to grad school), and, IMO, it’s better to recognize that earlier than later.</p>

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<p>With 3 children have you set a budget on how much you want to spend on college for each child? Have you thought about a limit on how much student loan debt you want each kid to have- if any?</p>

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<p>I would definately consider Tulane.</p>

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<p>madbean makes some excellent points, but I think it’s a mistake to equate the top tier of admissions selectivity with the Ivy League.</p>

<p>Some of the Ivy League schools – specifically, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Columbia – do indeed have very low admissions rates. They are indeed among the most selective schools in the country, along with Stanford, MIT, and Caltech (and a few specialty schools, like Juilliard for performing arts).</p>

<p>The rest of the Ivy League schools – Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, and Cornell – are highly selective, but not necessarily more so than Duke or Georgetown or Wash U or other schools at that level. Admissions results for students who apply to schools in this selectivity range vary. There are kids at Cornell who didn’t get into Duke. There are kids at Duke who didn’t get into Cornell. What each school is looking for may be different. I don’t think the OP’s daughter or others with qualifications like hers should let the “Ivy” name scare them off.</p>

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<p>1a. However, every year some kids DO get into the Ivies and the top LACs who are just well rounded great kids. You absolutely can’t count on it, but it is possible. Perhaps those kids had great essays, or superlative reccommendations, but at least on paper or what we knew of them in public (i.e. some of the kids in our school), it was not obvious that they would be in. </p>

<ol>
<li>Most important of all - find a safety you like. It’s easy to find matches and reaches, the hard part is to find the hidden gems. This might be a state university with a good honors program, it might be a school with rolling admissions that you hear from early, or it might be a school that’s strong in your likely major, or one whose location or atmosphere you like.</li>
</ol>

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<p>I second what Marian and mathmom said.</p>

<p>I don’t see it as a “restating the facts as we’ve learned them” to say:</p>

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<p>The facts are that some, but not all, normal smart students do get into Ivies. Though if the girl hates cold weather, then ivies are not under consideration anyway.</p>

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<p>If she wants to stay in Texas, I would recommend Rice and SMU (and A&M and UT, but I read she doesn’t want to go those schools). </p>

<p>I have lived in Texas my whole life, and Rice is definitely one of the most prestigious schools in Texas. It has great stats and always ranks high. It is well respected in Texas, especially Houston, and has a pretty campus. Definitely a good pick for your daughter if she wants to stay in state. </p>

<p>SMU is also a prestigious university in Texas, and its stats prove it. It always makes the rankings, and has wonderful academics. Its GORGEOUS campus will make her fall in love, and it’s in the best location in Dallas. SMU already has a great reputation (besides some people saying its full of rich kids, which is ignorant), and its getting more competitive every year. </p>

<p>Baylor and TCU are other great schools to look at in Texas. </p>

<p>Just giving my two sense. :)</p>

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<p>Guess I should have said: “the facts as I (not “we”) learned them.” Sorry. :)</p>

<p>Sometimes it helps to get an overview. There are now 27,468 public high schools in the U.S. I don’t know how that number strikes you, but I gotta think: yikes. That doesn’t account for number of independent or religious-affiliated schools. Since each of these schools will have a #1 graduate, there are seriously a LOT of impressive students vying for spots. Call me a bitter realist, but I haven’t seen any “normal” well-rounded kids without a hook get into the most selective programs but I am glad to hear from mathmom and vicarious they do exist. Whew. There’s always the hope, too, that a student hits a sort of hidden jackpot by being the kid who happens to fill a needed slot (oboe-player, whatever). And with the economy as it is and the number of HS graduates making a slow decline, the application climate may be warming, too. </p>

<p>I think the advice posted by everyone here is really great and I don’t want to be an unbearable downer. I just hoped to convey that students like the OP’s D have a strong foundation upon which to build a great application–but there is more they can do to enhance their chances if that’s appropriate and the student wants to go for it.</p>

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<p>Our approach was to read college guide books–I liked the Fiske Guide the best–and focus on the descriptions of and by the students. This is how we got a sense of probable “fit” before visiting. I was looking for words like quirky, unconventional, intellectual, unpretentious. Other people would be looking for other things. This approach worked well for us.</p>

<p>If she didn’t have a cold weather issue, I’d think Beloit might be a great safety for her. It’s one of the top schools for students who go on to PhDs in anthropology and gives good merit aid.</p>

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<p>To the OP (John):
Welcome to CC. In addition to the excellent advice you have gotten here, you might also consider doing a search on previous threads that have discussed this topic ad nauseum. Another book that my s’s fopund quite helpful was the Yale Daily New’s Insiders Guide to Colleges. Excellent book written towards the students and by the students-- gives a really good feel for what its like to be a student at these schools.</p>

<p>Oh, and I am pleasantly surprised that you havent gotten any starky comments about the title of your thread. Around here, many, MANY students are REALLY smart. I agree with LMNOP-- 2100 is very good, but not great, especially if your D is going for the top tier schools. I’d retake the SAT. Aim for a 2300. I would not have suggested a retake for 100 pts, but 200 pts is worth it, especially with the new options about score selection.</p>

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<p>Again, thank you all. This is some GREAT information. Esp. the stuff from Marian and Madbean - thank you. Great things to consider.</p>

<p>We just got home from a day trip to Rice. Nice looking campus. Mom and I would be thrilled to see her go there, but she didn’t care for the location right in the middle of Houston. “Houston is just too big” she kept saying. We asked why St. Louis (Washington U) is any different, and she said it just felt different to her. Can’t argue with that - it does. She doesn’t like the traffic at all. Last fall she had a pretty bad car wreck on her way to band practice and she still isn’t completely comfortable with driving.</p>

<p>Next trip will be to Trinity. Sounds like a good school for her to investigate. From a selfish standpoint, it would be nice to have her reasonably close to home in case she needs help with something. We’re blessed to be in a great location - less than 3 hours from many great colleges. </p>

<p>I must say that:</p>

<p>"A little piece of advice: you might want to tone down the “REALLY smart” claim. Around here, “REALLY smart” doesn’t mean SATs above 2100; there are many, many students here who have achieved that. It means SATs above 2350. At age 12. "</p>

<p>May be one of the most arrogant things I’ve ever read on any public internet message board (and I’ve been on several for 8+ years). That person needs a reality check. This was my first post after all. And I’m sorry but 2100+ and straight A’s for 11 years is considered “REALLY smart” by about 99% of Americans. We all know there are brainiacs out there. I myself finished high school 2 years early and her mom is a first class high school science teacher, but to us at least, the girl is smarter than any other kid we know, or have ever met. So we at least think that qualifies as “Really smart”. ;o)</p>

<p>To be fair, we’ve not discussed Ivy’s and with her relative lack of social experience I don’t think she would have enough on her application to even get in. Seems some folks here are interested in debating the challenges of being accepted into Ivy league schools, but My wife, daughter and I couldn’t care less about the “status” that some seem very concerned about. We’re not those kind of folks. I just don’t want my “pretty darn” smart daughter to end up regretting her choice of colleges if she has greater opportunities.</p>

<p>She isn’t the most outgoing young lady (pretty quiet in fact) but she will have 7 years of marching band experience, two years of varsity scholar bowl, Girl scout silver award, many hours of volunteer service (church related), and plenty of UIL competition experience here in Texas. No sports to speak of. Band competitons and scholar bowl are her “contact” sports she says… ha, ha.</p>

<p>So, we will go look at Trinity in S.A. next. Again, thanks for the advice. Some of these schools I have never even heard of. </p>

<p>Any suggestions of things she needs to be doing (PSAT question came up - thanks for that heads-up) this summer and into next year to help her chances? We’ve been talking internships and volunteer work for the summer, but again, she has trouble choosing a field to consider.</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>"May be one of the most arrogant things I’ve ever read on any public internet message board (and I’ve been on several for 8+ years). That person needs a reality check. This was my first post after all. And I’m sorry but 2100+ and straight A’s for 11 years is considered “REALLY smart” by about 99% of Americans. We all know there are brainiacs out there. I myself finished high school 2 years early and her mom is a first class high school science teacher, but to us at least, the girl is smarter than any other kid we know, or have ever met. So we at least think that qualifies as “Really smart”. "</p>

<p>Since you’re new here, it may be hard for you to realize that the person who responded to you wasn’t being arrogant, but was saying that on CC it’s not a good idea to define oneself or one’s kid as “really smart.” There are so many “really smart” people here – parents and students – including some who probably qualify as geniuses that saying “really smart” could lead to hurtful attacks by some snarky people. </p>

<p>The person who responded to you seemed to be giving kind advice, not trying to be arrogant or mean, which is more than I can say for some unkind people who could go into attack mode upon seeing a subject header with “really smart” in it.</p>

<p>Instead of labeling one’s kid’s intellect, far better here to let their achievements speak for themselves when asking for college suggestions here.</p>

<p>Meanwhile when it comes to things to do for the summer, my suggestion is to have your D pick something. Whether she ends up liking it or not, any summer experience will teach her more about herself and the world, and that eventually will help her figure out what to major in and what field to work in.</p>

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<p>Gosh, if she likes the accounting class, then I’d keep open that option. Not all schools offer accounting.</p>

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<p>Hey, limbwalker, stick around and you’ll see lots more arrogance around here! I would have taken those responses the same way you did, but they may have not been meant to offend. There is a goodly representation of very competitive posters here, but I think most people here really do try to help.</p>

<p>Seriously, most people here are very helpful and friendly in their advice. MY advice is to take away what can be helpful to you and just take the rest with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>I’m glad you got the chance to visit Rice. It is a beautiful part of town, but I completely understand your D’s perception that Houston is just too darn big. Good luck searching! Texas has lots of great schools.</p>

<p>Also wanted to mention that if there’s any interest in O.U. or Oklahoma State that I have observed that both of these schools are very proactive about getting Texas students to attend. Of course, these schools are not at the top of the “status” list, but I’m like you, that’s not so important to me.</p>

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<p>John,
I agree with those who said Cardinal Fang wasn’t being arrogant, but rather putting things in perspective. Around cc there really <em>are</em> scary smart, uber brilliant kids. Take for example, this poster’s DS. This post will give a flavor of the child she’d written about for quite some time <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062337838-post94.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062337838-post94.html&lt;/a&gt; Not meaning to downplay your dd’s achievements at all. She sounds very bright and you should be proud of her. The cc kids and parents are a bit of a skewed population, and what I think Cardinal Fang was saying was that around here one might find themselves amongst many with similar stats, EC’s etc. When a poster starts a thread with a title like “really smart…”" sometimes they can be seen as a potential ■■■■■. I think Cardinal Fang was just trying to warn you. At least thats how I took it. You and your daughter sound like you are at the right place doing your research here. She sounds like a top kid with lots of potential. Good luck to her in her college search. Its a wild but fun ride.</p>

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<p>

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<p>Uh, no. This is wishful thinking. Some of the schools you name accept about 20-25% of applicants, and SAT their middle 50% ranges are about 30 points lower than, say D or B. D and B are accepting around 12%. That’s a fairly significant difference.</p>

<p>Sure, you can make a case that Wash U is as selective as Cornell, or maybe Penn, depending on the program, but not D or B. Duke may be a little more selective than Wash U, Georgetown a little less.</p>

<p>OP, the response that you classify as “arrogant” you would do well to consider “realistic” and “not sugar coated.” Your choice, of course.</p>

<p>I don’t know how her stats would stack up, but some warm weather schools you might want to check out to fill a range of safety/match/reach choices include Davidson, Pomona and the rest of the Claremont Colleges, Wake Forest, U VA, William and Mary, Elon, New College of FL, and UNC Chapel Hill.</p>

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<p>limbwalker: I don’t know if it has been suggested but another excellent college that may be a great fit for a really smart kid who might be slightly less socially outgoing: Swarthmore. Although you should also consider whether she will be comfortable in politically and socially liberal environments. I trust Southeast Texas is some shade of red?</p>

<p>Edit: I agree with your statement that your daughter “is REALLY smart by 99% of Americans”, but I want to point out that with about 300 Million Americans, the remaining 1% works out to about 3 Million Americans who might think she is PRETTY smart. I too have a junior daughter who I think is REALLY smart. She is one of the smartest people (adult or kid) that I know, and teachers and classmates rave about her. She also has straight A grades and took the SAT as a sophomore last year and got a 2250. I am proud, and happy about what she has accomplished but thanks to this forum I know there are thousands of kids just like her and many even smarter than her. She is considering applying Rice and to Wash U, but is by no means sure that she will get in.</p>

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<p>I’m glad you got to visit Rice, if she gets a second chance to visit and actually stay a few days and see how much she <em>doesn’t</em> need to drive, it might help, but frankly she has lots of other choices…
If she likes Trinity, look at Hendix and Rhodes as similar sized schools. If they seem too conservative look West… many great schools around LA, which means a quick flight to the nearest big airport… Occidental, the Claremont colleges, or go much larger and look at USC if she wants more Texas-style school spirit and sports…Hey, they have a heck of a marching band…</p>

<p>Best wishes!</p>

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<p>I would concur that Cardinal Fang was not being arrogant, just realistic. As someone else mentioned, I would look at schools where your D’s scores are at the top of their 25-75% range.</p>

<p>Case in point - my nephew. Brilliant kid. 2390 SAT (one and only sitting), National Merit Finalist, val of his class, straight A’s kdg - senior year, IB diploma, Presidential Scholar semi, played a sport, did research for a national museum, etc. etc. - rejected from MIT, Harvard and Stanford. Classmate of nephew’s - lovely girl who had a 36 ACT and 2390 SAT but limited “quality” ECs - rejected by Washington University in St. Louis - her first choice. </p>

<p>Someone mentioned whether your D has taken the PSAT or not. The test is given in October of a student’s junior year to be considered for the National Merit Scholarship “competition”. If she did not take it last October, she would not be eligible now.</p>