REALLY smart daughter can't make up her mind! Help!

Parent Cafe
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<p>I just skimmed through most of the posts here again and figured I’d throw my 2 cents in about our process. I made up a form that listed important information (for either DD or my DH & I) and had my DD fill it in for each school. Name, address, adcom, COA, % greek, travel time driving & or flying (including whether or not there was a non-stop flight available; that was HUGE for DH & I.) % acceptance rate; AP credit policy; study abroad option; majors; OOS%; FTE; student/faculty ratio; freshman return rate; SATII requirements; % of students of stay on campus on weekends; average SAT/ACT; 4 year graduation rate; D1 football; honors program; NMF scholarship; etc. Once she had done that we had each college on a page and it made it easier for her to rank them. Your DD’s list probably wouldn’t have D1 football on it, but neither would mine a year ago :)</p>

<p>After she had filled those all out, the data wonk in me pulled out certain data points and put them in excel and racked and stacked them: COA; test scores, enrollment, acceptance rate, and rankings. That seemed to have helped too.</p>

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<p>I also want to say, that many of us parents have been free with our kids grades and scores not because we are boasting, but because we believe it will help other parents make more realistic estimations about their child’s chances at various schools. It’s no secret that my “really smart” kid got into some top schools and was also rejected from some other top schools, or more accurately was rejected from a lot of top schools. We weren’t prestige mongers, just looking for good fits for him.</p>

<p>You are getting lots of good suggestions here. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Yea, really good stuff. Things I never would have thought of at all…</p>

<p>Hey, and you guys are helping me look smart to the Mrs. too :wink: Thanks!</p>

<p>Ohmadre, thanks for the great information and advice. I’m aware that many top universities are filled with great down-to-earth kids. I didn’t realize until recently just how much some of those schools are prepared to help even middle class folks like us. That’s VERY refreshing to see. We’re prepared to cough up the cash and live frugally (Lord knows we know how), but without some significant help, she won’t be attending any $30K+/year schools, regardless of acceptance. </p>

<p>So now that we have a reasonable idea of where she fits academically, we need to start plowing our way through the finances and assistance jungle. Then physically visit some of these really good-sounding schools.</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>I doubt that’s true. The problem is that people have permissive notions of what is a “great” GPA or a “good” SAT. The superselective schools enroll, let’s say, about 15000 students a year. Say that 40 percent of that is for applicants not subject to any preferences: 6000 students. That number of students is about 0.4 percent of SAT takers per year. The equivalent SAT score (99.6 percentile) is somewhere between 2300 and 2350. The general public might think 700 per exam is good, but those perceptions are twenty years out of date. No school has 2300 as its typical SAT score but it does give an idea of what range is relevant to admission on the academic merits. </p>

<p>There also is no such a thing as a great GPA at this level of selectivity, except at a handful of schools that are famously competitive or difficult. At an ordinary school, there isn’t any number of A’s that corresponds to a 99.5 or 99.9th percentile achievement.</p>

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<p>Welcome John! </p>

<p>I think you are getting a lot of good advice here and bravo to you for filtering out the clamor of Ivy recommendations and then the associated off-topic argument about relative difficulty of admission.</p>

<p>If I had a nickel for the number of threads that devolve into Ivy recommendations for just about any kid with SATs above 2000 I would not be worried about how to pay for tuition next year! </p>

<p>Here’s what I’ve gathered about your daughter:</p>

<ol>
<li> Introvert and selective about her activities</li>
<li> Wants an intellectual environment and time for introspection; probably would like it if her peers were as involved academically as she is.</li>
<li> Needs a broad based “core” for at least the first year in order to help her ascertain her preferred direction, but truly could go into business, math or social science.</li>
<li> May enjoy the opportunity to play her instrument in college.</li>
<li> Hates cold weather.</li>
<li> Rah Rah and greek culture would be a big turn off. </li>
</ol>

<p>Here are some schools that are in parts of the country that don’t get too cold, don’t have a big football/Greek scene and may have business schools, have a broad core curriculum and purport to be interested in serious students:</p>

<ol>
<li>University of Portland, Portland OR: Great core, good business program and lots of liberal arts options. Private Catholic (Holy Cross) and lots of focus on ethics and community service. Merit aid. </li>
<li>Willamette University, Salem OR: oldest college on the west coast. Great liberal arts and a business program. Merit aid. Kind of quiet but an excellent education.</li>
<li>Linfield College, McMinnville OR: Baptist affiliated. Not too conservative (not Southern Baptist–the other kind). Excellent, excellent academics. McMinn is about 40 miles from Portland and is a gorgeous town–Oregon wine country–and about 40 miles from the Oregon coast.<br></li>
<li> University of the South (Sewanee)–liberal arts, business minor</li>
<li>Wake Forest–Has one of the best accounting programs in the country but purports to be a liberal arts school. May be a little bit on the rah rah side (basketball) but nowhere near the Texas scene.</li>
<li>Rhodes and </li>
<li>Hendrix</li>
</ol>

<p>Both have been highly recommended by CC’ers–check them out.</p>

<p>And a good safety option:
8. St. Mary’s College of MD: Public liberal arts school in a rural location right on the water. Outdoorsy. Extremely close knit student and faculty community because of the isolation. About an hour/hour and a half south of DC. Lots of MD/VA suburban kids whose parents work in the govt–smart, nice group of kids.</p>

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<p>Wow! you guys are good!</p>

<p>Your 6 point observation about my daughter is scary it’s so good. That’s her in an nutshell alright.</p>

<p>Been to that area of Oregon, and it’s a gorgeous place. </p>

<p>Honestly, we’ve not really talked much about sending her that far away. That’s something we need to discuss. With the cost of college probably tapping us out, I’m not sure how we could afford to make the trips up there (or her here) very often. How do folks with kids attending far off schools make that work? I mean, we’re pretty comfortable right now, but a couple of $500 plane tickets every few months along with the cost of tuition, room and board won’t leave anything for the other two kids to eat…</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>By the way, if your dau is on the shy side, I strongly recommend you explore schools with the Residential College system. It really makes a difference. The House Masters are like surrogate parents and the environment is very nurturing and welcoming. I know you said your dau wasn’t as enthralled with Rice as with Wash U, but both are great schools and I strongly suggest you encourage your dau to look at schools (like Rice) when they are in session-- not when the campus is quiet after graduation. I cannot say enough great things about Rice.</p>

<p>Have you posted here what her preferences are with respect to size of school, location, possible areas of intrest, etc? That will really help people direct you better.
Lastly, there is a great map, called Professor Pathfinders, that shows all the colleges/universities in the US and onthe back gives brief info about each school. Its a great resource too.</p>

<p>*** Just read mombots post. With those descriptors, your dau should REALLY take a second look at Rice. It totally fits the bill.</p>

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<p>And here’s a link to the map I mentioned above. Its wonderful! [Hedberg</a> Maps, Inc. - Custom College, City, Regional and Specialty Maps](<a href=“http://www.hedbergmaps.com/store/catalog/10013]Hedberg”>http://www.hedbergmaps.com/store/catalog/10013)</p>

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<p>I’d never heard of Trinity University in San Antonio until this thread. Then I’m reading all the congratulation messages to the graduating seniors in our local paper and one of the grads will be attending Trinity in the fall. Happen to know these people so I called the mom up and asked her about her D’s decision to attend Trinity. Some snippets of what she had to say - </p>

<ol>
<li>Campus is beautiful and the size her D was looking for.</li>
<li> A very extensive curriculum for a school the size of Trinity. It is a LAC with a strong science side.</li>
<li>Reputation of having wonderful, caring professors and small class sizes.</li>
<li>Undergraduate research is easy to come by if you want it, as are internship opportunities.</li>
</ol>

<p>Sounds like a jewel!</p>

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<p>Yes, the person who asked you to tone done the “really smart” was being snarky.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, a large proportion of the people who frequent this board have kids with credentials in the same ballpark as your daughter’s – or better – and come from environments where their kids are NOT smarter than any other kid they know or have ever met. To those parents, the claim that a student with credentials like your daughter’s is unusually smart does not ring true.</p>

<p>As I mentioned before, my daughter, who just finished her second year in college, has credentials similar to your daughter’s. But she is NOT smarter than any other kid I know – or that she knows. In the world she comes from (a magnet program at a public high school in an affluent part of Maryland), she was considered highly competent but not extraordinary. She was a National Merit Finalist, but since her school produced 35 of those in her year, it was not exactly something to get excited about. She got an IB diploma, but so did about 105 other kids at her school that year. She was not among the top 10 people in her graduating class (probably between 15th and 20th, although her school doesn’t give out exact rank information, so we don’t know precisely). She got a 2320 on the SAT and knew quite a few kids who did better. She did NOT have unusually impressive extracurricular accomplishments, and she knew plenty of kids who did. And (except for legacy status at one college she liked), she didn’t have the “something special” factor that would favor her in the college admissions process.</p>

<p>I would never describe my daughter on these boards as “really smart.” Among the kinds of families who post here, she’s nothing unusual. And at the selective university she attends, although she is clearly in the top quarter of the student body in terms of grades, is involved in some extracurricular activities, and has had a couple of good summer internships, she isn’t anything extraordinary. </p>

<p>More important than the above, though, is the difference in the way that the different environments that our daughters came from may shape their feelings during the college admissions process. My daughter knew, without having to be told, that she was not a realistic candidate for Harvard, Yale, etc. At her school, only the extraordinary kids and those slightly less than extraordinary who happen to be members of underrepresented minority groups have a realistic shot at the very top colleges. So she set her sights a little lower and was pleased with the results. A girl from a background like your daughter’s is more at risk, I think, of overestimating her chances of admission to the very top colleges and her chances at competitive merit scholarships than my daughter was. Of course, there’s no reason why she shouldn’t try for any college that interests her (and that your family expects to be able to afford). But she needs to be prepared for the possibility of disappointment. Often, kids who attend high schools where they stand out academically are not prepared for the likelihood of rejection (and sometimes their teachers and guidance counselors aren’t prepared either). Similarly qualified kids who come from environments where they don’t stand out may have more realistic expectations.</p>

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<p>LW:</p>

<p>Given that there are financial constraints, you need to sit D down and explain to her that as you visit colleges she must keep in mind that there is not only personal “fit” to consider, but financial fit, and the latter is crucial. It will be a frustrating college search if D tends to compare every campus to one she is holding in her mind as an ideal and finds fault if it’s not matching up perfectly. </p>

<p>I agree that Rice should remain on the list for your D, not only for the reasons jym gave, but for financial reasons. Check out the cost of attendance for Washu and Rice, $52,400 and $43,500 per year respectively. There’s already a $9,000 discount by attending Rice, before even applying for aid. Now let’s say your D is awarded a half-tuition scholarship at WashU — and these are tough to get, very competitive — the cost would still be about $34,000 a year. (If she also got the music scholarship – you don’t have to be a music major — that would take another $4,000 off.) If your D were to get a half-tuition scholarship at Rice, the cost there would drop to $28,000.</p>

<p>For the sake of comparison, total COA for Trinity, before any aid, is $38,500. If your D won a half-tuition scholarship there, the cost would be about $25,000 per year. </p>

<p>I can suggest another great website to make it easy to compare colleges: [College</a> Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics](<a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/]College”>College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics)</p>

<p>You can get cost figures, admission rates, even admission rates broken down by gender, a list of programs and numbers of students enrolled in them, and under “admissions” you can find the range of average SAT and ACT scores of admitted students. This will help give you an idea of where your student stands irt to admission, but also to receive merit aid. (Higher the better, obviously.)</p>

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<p>Is that $30k limit for tution only, or the fulll COA (tuition, fees, room, board)?</p>

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<p>* “A girl from a background like your daughter’s is more at risk, I think, of overestimating her chances of admission to the very top colleges and her chances at competitive merit scholarships than my daughter was…”*</p>

<p>Actually, quite the contrary. Our daughter, and indeed my wife and I, are just fine with a school like UT or A&M, or another “good” solid college. Never really considered schools like even Rice or (God forbid) Ivy league. She would have been really happy attending a State college with a pretty campus and interesting faculty or program. She’s not the competitive type at all. Again, quite the contrary. The idea of “status” or competition is a turn-off for her. She’d rather just put her head down and study and work hard. Never has been concerned in the least who noticed her accomplishments. She’s one of those kids that works hard and tries to do the right thing just for the sake of doing it. </p>

<p>It’s obvious we come from two very different worlds. I work for the U.S. Gov’t and have spent plenty of time in the D.C. area. Every time I fly into Dulles, Reagan or Baltimore, I wonder what type of people must live in those multi-million dollar homes with yachts that cost more than my house. Now I know. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but I’d rather have a beer with the next door neighbor and talk about how his kids are doing in little league or 4-H than to plot my next purchase or worry about what the stock market did today. We’re pretty “real” here in this household. So just college is a good start, and then a good college for a bright young lady is even better. From the families my wife and I came from, a 4 year degree is the exception, not the rule. </p>

<p>I’m actually pretty amused at how much attention my “REALLY Smart” comment got. That tells me a lot about some folks. And it’s probably good that I made that mistake, since it got a lot of notice and replies. Again, good perspective for dad. Daughter doesn’t pay close attention to those things, for better or worse. </p>

<p>In this household at least, success is (1) finding a job you love and working hard, (2) contributing to society, and (3) being prepared when the good Lord calls you home. Be that a doctor, lawyer, senator, insurance agent, biologist or maintenance worker - it doesn’t really matter. We couldn’t care less so long as they meet those three goals. We all have a place in Heaven if we want it, and on earth we all have a way to contribute.</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>psych, was that question for me?</p>

<p>Not crazy about sharing financial info online, but this seems like a very helpful and knowlegeable group.</p>

<p>Out of pocket, we’re prepared to handle something in the $16-18K/year neighborhood without assistance. More than that and we’d have to stretch, but would be willing to for the right opportunity for her. A lot more than that, and I’d have to sell one of the other kids (which, depending on the day, is an option too :wink: )</p>

<p>So is it unrealistic to be looking at $30K/year schools with the hopes that some assistance will be available? If it doesn’t materialize, then we’re back to UT or the like, but I was hoping to find that some of the better schools have assistance she can qualify for. Student loans are another option I guess, but who wants their kid to be strapped with debt straight out of college? Took me 10 years to pay off mine. No fun at all.</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>LW–When you get your copy of Fiske or whatever college guide you wind up with, take a look at some of the women’s colleges in the NE–Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Wellesley, and Bryn Mawr. Admissions here are easier than equivalently excellent coed colleges. I think your daughter would have a good shot at these schools which tend to have excellent academics, supportive communities, wonderful alumnae networks, and a social vibe that your daughter might like. Some of the four schools I’ve listed are quite liberal, so comfort with that would have to be a consideration. These women’s colleges are truly top schools on beautiful campuses if your daughter can imagine going to a single sex school.</p>

<p>You asked earlier about travel when a student lives a long plane ride away. Typically, kids come home at winter break, perhaps at spring break, and for the summer (or a summer visit if they have a job/internship elsewhere). At my NE college, this meant lots of kids went to a local friend’s house for Thanksgiving and spring break. Often, one parent would help the child move in as a freshman (and many kids arrived by themselves) and the parents did not appear on campus again until graduation. You have to ask if your daughter would be comfortable with a scenario like this–living at a distant college means you don’t see your parents every couple of months. If the college is the right fit, the child should be fine with this as her college friends become a second family.</p>

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<p>If you make, I think, sub-100k, annually, then Stanford and the top Ivies (if your D decides to give cold a chance) will be very affordable. Also, look at schools where your D could qualify for merit aid–Hendrix, Centre (in KY, though it does have a fairly active Greek system), Judson (in AL, if she’s open to single-sex), Randolph in VA (the former women’s college) all spring to mind as merit aid possibilities. I suggest figuring out your expected EFC using a calculator, as that will determine how much need-based aid you could qualify for.</p>

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<p>limbwalker, if you’re new to the CC boards, you may not have stumbled on the college-specific part yet. Click on “colleges” under the list of “Top Forums” and you can look a specific college up alphabetically and see what topics have come up.</p>

<p>If you’ve already discovered this, you’re ahead of the game. I think it helps to see what kinds of questions people are asking about specific colleges, and what kinds of answers they’re getting.</p>

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<p>Do consider things like distance and transportation costs when considering colleges. For some reason, many people on CC seem to not pay attention to those factors, which can be very important for many.</p>

<p>With gas prices rising, and airlines adding more fees, it can be difficult to go to places that are at a distance. Going far from home also makes it difficult for students to return home for holidays including 3-day weekends, times that some campuses virtually empty out. It also can be hard for parents to transport students to college and/or it can be hard for the students to drive themselves.</p>

<p>Most people go to college within 250 miles of home for good reason. One can still get a great deal of independence and learn about adapting to new cultures by going to a place that is within that distance of home. In addition, if a young person plans to return to their home state for grad school and/or their career, they may have better contacts for doing this by going to college within their state or within a relatively short distance from their home.</p>

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<p>psych, we’re on that line. Can you recommend a good EFC calculator? I’ve seen a few, but wasn’t sure if I was filling them our correctly, or how realistic they are… I had heard that some of the top schools could be within financial reach for folks like us. I am pleasantly surprised by that, since I figured we were in that “no man’s land” of too wealthy to qualify but too poor to afford…</p>

<p>Oh, and how do you know so darn much about all these schools!?! Some of you folks are amazing! And I’m grateful.</p>

<p>A.A., thanks. We need to have that talk about distance from home. My son would probably go to school on the moon if he could get there, but the oldest daughter is not so independant. But I hear what you’re saying about the 2-3 trips/year. I never went back “home” since I didn’t have one to go to, but my wife did about every 2-3 months. I’ll ask my daughter and see what she says… All girl schools huh? That may appeal to her. Boys aren’t even on her radar yet, and she’s almost 17. Guess that’s a blessing of sorts, but I worry that she’s missing out on some things like prom, etc. Of course, that’s just that much less for this protective father to worry about…</p>

<p>John.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the comment, jazzymom. Seems OP doesn’t want to talk to me :(</p>

<p>And folks-- be careful about posting links to competitors websites. I believe thats against the TOS</p>