<p>I'm soliciting reasons to select Carleton over Yale. My daughter was waitlisted at Swarthmore which I thought was ideal school for her and has now ruled out Brown, Wesleyan, and Chicago, leaving only Yale and Carleton and possibly Macalester in the running. We visited Yale this week and were suitably impressed but she has doubts. She currently attends a small nurturing boarding school in the woods in the Midwest and adores the place. She cares about nature (present at Carleton) and Midwestern values and doesn't care about prestige, in fact she is if anything a reverse snob. I imagine the classroom education she's receive at Carleton would be equal to Yale's (I attended Carleton myself). On the other hand, I'm confident that the out of class room experience at Yale would be far more varied. And my daughter does not need the nurturing aspect of a small liberal arts college, she makes things happen and would flourish any place. What do you think?</p>
<p>Her doubts, at this stage and with these choices, are probably about something important but ineffable, probably some sense of the community and "fit". Intituiton is important, even if often inarticulate. I'd say go with Carleton given it's many advantages. Yale is a fine (in my opinion, even better) graduate destination. Good luck with riding this one out...</p>
<p>As you know, Carleton is a fine fine college, a great place to get a real education. But that's true of every one of your daughter's enviable list of college options.</p>
<p>If it were my son (who attended Chicago but also admitted to Carleton and Williams), I would recommend Yale for the manifold variety of the place. If it were my daughter (who attended RISD), I'd recommend Yale for the art program.</p>
<p>I think you'd find the overall academic quality for the "average" student attending to be higher at Carleton. There just is no way getting around the TAs, the large classes, (the lack of commitment to JYA if it matters), and, most importantly, the reality that the really famous profs have other fish to fry. Yes, they teach undergraduates - but that's not where their reputation is made. This is not a put-down of Yale, which I think is extraordinary; I just think Carleton is better - for the "average" student. But if she has special interests - intense interest in early music; art history; Egyptology; Classics (in the original languages), etc., there's no getting around the fact that there is so much more at Yale.</p>
<p>What a wonderful (and difficult) choice!</p>
<p>(P.S. If Swarthmore was the ideal school, what does Swat have that Carleton doesn't? They are very similar, with Carleton having more in the arts. Did I miss something?)</p>
<p>If your D is a quiet person, she might be in danger of being lost in the herd at Yale. That would not happen at Carleton.</p>
<p>No opinion, but applause, recognition for you and your daughter having the wisdom to look at the appropriateness of the 2 schools for her - not just well, it's Yale of course.</p>
<p>Math major? Scholarship money? Hate cities?</p>
<p>Disclosure: My daughter is a freshman at Carleton. That said, she chose Carleton over Ivy opportunities because she wanted to be with students who chose their college not because of prestige but because of a wide range of factors. Let's face it: the students who choose Carleton tend to be the hardy type because it lacks two things many kids base their college choice on--location in an urban setting and warm weather. If your daughter is a rugged individualist but not hyper competitive, then Carleton may be the better place for her. According to my DD, students compete against themselves rather than others at Carleton. After coming from an uber compeitive high school, my daughter finally seems to feel at home. Good luck!</p>
<p>Many are choosing Carlton over ivy's theses days. The president of Pomona's D last year was in the same dilema re Harvard and Carlton. He himself had graduated from Harvard. She ended up at Carlton because of the great sense of community, prof/student relationships and stellar academics(which of course you would have at Yale)</p>
<p>I'm not sure if this is what you want to hear, but I agonized over a similar choice (Yale vs. a top LAC) years ago and will always be glad I picked Yale.</p>
<p>Interestingly, based on who I was in high school, the LAC was the far more obvious fit and would have been a more comfortable choice for me. To this day I'm not sure what made me decide to go with Yale. But I changed a lot in college, and Yale--which is pretty nurturing, actually, because of the residential college system--offered amazing opportunities to grow in directions I wouldn't have necessarily predicted.</p>
<p>There's no wrong answer here; assuming that are no important financial considerations, Yale and Carleton are both so terrific that there's no "objective" reason to pick one over the other (except perhaps that Yale doesn't offer much in the way of nature or midwestern values). Some people would probably suggest that your daughter weigh all the costs and benefits of the two options, but I'd recommend just the opposite--that she follow her instincts.</p>
<p>I don't have an opinion nor advice, but a question.</p>
<p>I have seen many references to Midwestern values. I understand that the values usually equate to pragmastism, a certain stoicism, and solid work ethics, but are there other elements that embody the Midwest when it comes to values?</p>
<p>Thanks all. Here is a little more information in response to your questions. Main advantage of Swarthmore over Carleton for my daughter is proximity to where we live; plus she visited Swarthmore and was wowed by it, she hasn't made it up to Carleton yet though I suspect she'll love it. She likes cities and would be comfortable in New Haven, we live in a similar place, though she also loves nature which New Haven doesn't offer while Carleton has arboretum. She thinks she wants to major in history or political science and do some sort of public service ultimately. She is spending next year in Israel and very much identifies with being Jewish which I imagine is a factor in Yale's favor. Except for her last two years of high school in an arts boarding school (which she attended on nearly full scholarship) she attended very urban public schools and has little tolerance for sense of entitlement.</p>
<p>"she attended very urban public schools and has little tolerance for sense of entitlement."</p>
<p>60% of Yale students receive no financial aid, which means family income is a minimum of $155k - the median for these is much, much higher. Median family income for all Yale students must be around $200k. Figure the family vacations, automobiles, maids and nannies, and etc. that go with those kinds of incomes.</p>
<p>BUT, what that means is that the world view of those students is limited (in some ways, but not others), not that their intentions are poor or not well-meaning, or etc. It means that they are likely future decisionmakers and opinion leaders, and what happens while they are in college will be an important part of their development. And I wouldn't go overboard: it is different at Carleton, especially at the upper ends of the spectrum, but not HUGELY different (though there ain't no Skull'n'Bones.)</p>
<p>Both are great places. I am sure there is a very active Hillel at Carleton. Nature at New Haven is an oxymoron, though there is an active organic garden, with some neat students working in it! (we met 'em). If going abroad is a high priority as part of education, I'd be very leery of Bulldogville.</p>
<p>Xiggi--Re: Midwestern values. Maybe "values" is the wrong word, "outlook" is probably more apt. Obviously this is a gross overgeneralization but I associate the Midwest -- I'm particularly thinking Minnesota and Wisconsin here, since I knew so many kids from these states at Carleton -- with absence of pretension and social striving, a certain wholesomeness, earnestness, balance, mental healthiness, normalcy. While I tend to think of East Coast establishments as having more folks whose outlook is ironic or even cynical and who have more of a sense of entitlement (anathema to my daughter), who may care more about going to the "right" school. My daughter loves her teachers at her little Midwestern school because she finds them to be caring and genuine and unpretentious and was uncomfortable with one Yale professor whose class she visited because she found him to be arrogant (though she loved another professor there).</p>
<p>As a Carleton alum, you must be very proud that she has the opportunity to attend. And you are well aware of the experience there. Congrats on all her acceptances. You've received some very thoughtful responses. After seeing the title, I was expecting to read nothing but "no brainer, go to Yale" advice. No wrong choices here, just very different ones. As you said, your D will make things happen wherever she goes.</p>
<p>Carlmom (hi - maybe our D's know each other) accurately described the self-competitive environment as our D sees it too. Our D (from PacNW)is also a frosh at Carleton. She is very challenged by the academics (was val at very competitive hs), is immersed in extra-curricular activities (including a brand new varsity sport for her), and has found her "home". She seriously considered comparable NE and mid-Atlantic LAC's (including Swat), but felt more comfortable with the open social atmosphere (I guess that means the "midwestern ideals") she observed at Carleton. She has met students who were also admitted to Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Brown, and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>BTW, Sascha, speaking of nature this winter at Carleton: D went cross-country skiing in the arb in January, but there wasn't enough snow/cold this year to continue with it or keep the ice rinks going on the Bald Spot for broomball. She was very disappointed. What's this rumor about harsh winters in MN???</p>
<p>FIT, FIT, FIT! Good luck to your D. She sounds like a great kid who knows her own mind and heart.</p>
<p>There is no snow at Carleton. They moved to Aruba. Go to the photographs section of the website, and you'll notice there aren't any pictures of snow. Just kids in shorts and tee-shirts, barefeet and birkenstocks, sitting on lawns under leafy trees....</p>
<p>mini - Yup, those pics enticed D to escape the rainy NW.</p>
<p>Take a look at the student produced campus tour video - they saved all the cold and snow for that promotion. It's entertaining.</p>
<p>My son who goes there says the climate is changing and they have had a very warm winter and an early spring.The kids do frown on "pretentiousness" at Carleton.He has become an even more amazing person since he has been in school there. He has even met a girlfirend who is quite similar to him. He didn't date much in high school but is very popular and happy at Carleton.</p>
<p>
Ironic? Cynical? You bet. You got a problem with that?? ;) But shucks, even some of us hard-bitten Easterners value Yale for reasons other than entitlement or snob appeal. Indeed, the last thing truly cynical and ironic people care about is chasing a fancy label.</p>
<p>I would never say that Yale is better than Carleton--but nor is it merely a haven for status-obsessed future Masters of the Universe. For this public school girl, anyway, Yale was amazing. (Yale College, anyway, mmaah. I hated the grad school.)</p>
<p>From what I recollect of my daughter's college-hunting experience,</p>
<p>Carleton is a lot colder than Yale, for a lot longer.
Carleton probably has a more regionally concentrated student body than Yale's, percentagewise. Lots of Minnesotans.
Carleton has a low percentage of Jewish students compared to many colleges of comparable quality, and compared to Yale. (see "lots of Minnesotans" above)</p>
<p>I guess I'm not helping much...</p>
<p>My daughter hated Yale after the initial talk by the jock admissions officer, walked out of the tour, didn't apply but wouldn't have been accepted anyway.</p>
<p>Good to have these kind of choices though.</p>