Recent Cost/Benefit Reminders

Parents Forum
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<p>I thought these two recent articles were very timely, especially as I work with my first child on choosing a college & major. As the entire country slogs through the worst recession since the great depression, it's been eye opening to see the colleges and universities have gone virtually unscathed. Could they be the next industry to collapse? Probably not. Heck, COA INCREASED during the financial crisis and economic collapse, and easy loans remained available. It seems to be an industry totally unaffected by normal or catastrophic market forces. Perhaps as other industries/livelihoods continue shrink year after year, we as parents and students continue to look at a college education as the last life boat offering a potentially bright future. There is no other choice. And so the applicants and money continues to pour in.</p>

<p>Is Law School a Losing Game
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Grading the Ivory Towers
Review</a> & Outlook: Grading the Ivory Towers - WSJ.com</p>

<p>So where to invest? So far my child has options with schools costing anywhere from $22,000 - $53,000 a year, and a plethora of majors to choose from. In most people’s lifetimes there is perhaps no greater investment with so much risk.</p>

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<p>quibble</p>

<p>“Perhaps as other industries/livelihoods continue shrink year after year”</p>

<p>do you really expect the economy to shrink in the next few years? I mean even after it grew, albeit way too slowly, in 2010? If you think that, then few investments in higher ed are going to have a have positive benefit-cost.</p>

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<p>I have a friend whose father gave her a really good piece of advice. She was thinking about majoring in classics/classical archaeology, and we attended the same excellent (though also high priced) college. He told her that that was fine with him, he would support her, BUT she needed to know that realistically she was only going to make a living at it if she was the best (and she needed to make a living because she would have student loans and her parents were not going to be able to support her once she graduated). So if she was committed to being the best in her field, she should go ahead. If she wasn’t, she should maybe reconsider and take a major with more varied/lucrative/growing career options. </p>

<p>Which is to say that if your student wants to go to the most expensive school, or go to Law School, or major in something obscure or without a really well-defined career path, I don’t think you should discourage them, but I think you should prepare them. For the best students, or for the students from the best law schools, things have not declined as much. It’s tough for everyone, but the top students tend to have the most choices. </p>

<p>If a student is more “middle of the road”, they may want to focus on other ways to maximize their choices, like going to a school that’s less expensive so they are responsible for less debt after graduation. Or choosing a major that they know will be in high demand so that they will have less difficulty finding work. Everything in life is a tradeoff, so the trick is to find the formula that works the best for your own student and their own situation/expectations.</p>

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<p>Yes, but many of those opting for law school have worked for a couple of years as paralegals, or research assts, or admin assts or peace corps vols and are hoping to move from “job” to “career.” Grad school can be expensive and this is particularly true for law school, but I’m not sure what the options are for generalists with undergrad humanities or soc sci degrees who want to move beyond being support staff. (Totally different picture for undergrads and grad prgrms in STEM.)</p>

<p>As for varied/lucrative/growing career options - - a tall order and particularly hard to come by these days. A JD gives you plenty of options, but law school is expensive and the market, like many, is shrinking. STEM jobs are lucrative, varied and portable, but most students aren’t strong enough in the sciences to pursue this route. MSW - - not particularly lucrative and not a growing field; teaching - - good luck. </p>

<p>The father’s advice was good for my genertion, but I’m not sure what the answer is for my Ds. S&P, you are a recent grad - - what kind of work do you do? Are you thinking about grad school?</p>

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<p>It makes a lot of sense to ME for kids to try working for a bit before spending a lot of time & resources in grad school. Several of the kids who graduating in engineering indicated they decided to get their masters while they were already there, especially since they had received no job offers. One masters student said that was what he did last year & this year he’s getting the masters degree but is just further in debt & still no job. :frowning: </p>

<p>We have encouraged our kids to pursue their passions – fortunately S’s have several decent job options and we’re hoping D’s will as well.</p>

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<p>“Grad school can be expensive and this is particularly true for law school, but I’m not sure what the options are for generalists with undergrad humanities or soc sci degrees who want to move beyond being support staff. (Totally different picture for undergrads and grad prgrms in STEM.)”</p>

<p>MBA? one year less debt, and prospects for similarly ranked schools not less bright than law? </p>

<p>And why not a grad degree in STEM? do you have to be STEM undergrad for an MS in Comp sci, or Statistics?</p>

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<p>One other problem with the grad degrees–it makes some folks LESS marketable because they’re “overqualified” in credentials while having very little to NO experience. Employers don’t want to have to pay them on a higher wage scale while having to train them & see whether they can cut it at the workforce. This applies to MANY grad degrees, including STEM. If employer likes the employee & s/he likes the work, employers may fund the grad education.</p>

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<p>"MBA? one year less debt, and prospects for similarly ranked schools not less bright than law? </p>

<p>And why not a grad degree in STEM? do you have to be STEM undergrad for an MS in Comp sci, or Statistics? "</p>

<p>^^ Many of them are not interested in business or lack the math/sci preparation for advanced degrees in STEM, stats and related fields. Also, not all MBAs are created equal: majoring in finance, quant analysis or econometrics is one thing - - majoring in HR is something else entirely.</p>

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<p>are we talking about “breaking out of staff work” or becoming affluent? </p>

<p>I mean there are lots of managers/execs who are not STEMMY. I mean, HR execs, for example. They may not command the salaries as some other fields, but they aren’t entry level positions.</p>

<p>I mean is the real question you are asking, “how can someone with zero interest in anything STEM related, make lots of money?”</p>

<p>I guess (apart from the massive talent and luck to make it big in artsy field) the best bet would be sales/marketing - IF you have the talents for that. </p>

<p>Not everyone will end up making lots of money.</p>

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<p>@foolishpleasure I am a recent grad, and I have a job working in the government that I landed partially through extremely good luck, but also partially through good preparation. I was fortunate to stumble on an area of study I found fascinating early on, that gave focus to my poli-sci major. Then I focused on getting internships in that area, including doing a semester in Washington through my school, which is when I got to spend an extended period of time interning and making the contacts that eventually, with a little luck, led to a great job. </p>

<p>I am thinking about graduate school, but will probably forgo law school in favor of doing an MPA (Masters in Public Adminstration), which is a pretty common degree for the non-law school set interested in policy. In fact, I think it’s a much better deal because overall it’s shorter (about the same period of class time, but I can take my degree straight into moving forward with my career, vs. clerking, having to work up in a big firm) and since it’s part of a traditional grad school program many of the programs provide good funding so I won’t have to take out so much debt hopefully to pay for my whole education, and I won’t have to plan on a private sector job in order to pay all that debt back. </p>

<p>I get what you’re saying, but in my practical experience being a new worker in this economy, my friend’s dad’s advice is sound. Of course, this is just speaking in generalities, as sometimes even the excellent students don’t get what they want. But the best students, and by that I mean not just the ones with the best grades, but the students who made sure to nail down the internships and took their classes seriously, the ones who made wise choices with an eye on what they wanted for their future, are working. And more often than not, they’re working in the field of their choice. The students who did not have the highest GPAs, or were not able/did not choose to intern or didn’t make/didn’t know the choices they needed to build towards a future after college, are either struggling to find work or working in a field they didn’t envision. </p>

<p>My point is that if you want to go to law school or you want to major in the history and customs of Timbuktu, you shouldn’t be concerned by all of these gloom and doom articles about how the economy is terrible and you’ll never work and you’ll end up picking up trash by the roadside for a living. But you should be realistic. Things are tough. There are fewer choices, and fewer safety nets than their used to be. So if you want what you want, you need to understand the trade off and you need to be prepared to commit yourself to the standard of excellence that success in that field (success as defined by whatever standards you choose) requires. In some fields, that standard is much higher than others, and it’s getting higher every day. You don’t need to be afraid, you just need to be realistic and prepared to work. And not only did my friend’s dad say that, but so did Career Services at my school.</p>

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<p>Not sure STEM salaries are the issue since most attnys never earn STEM wages. But many college grads hope for professional jobs and salaries which require grad degrees. </p>

<p>In my office, everyone in management (including HR middle managers of which there are only 2) has a grad degree, and whenever there’s been downsizing, the none-essential middle managers, like HR, are the first to go. In some of the neighboring offices there are a couple of middle managers w/o advanced degrees, but they are old timers (and generaly secys who were promoted to office manager). </p>

<p>An MPA is less expensive than a JD and many of the MPA students (like MSW students) probaly have profles/backgrounds similar to law students. But those grads are having a hard time too - -under-employed and under-paid. Bottom line, times are tight all over - - even for talented students who have been practical, dilligent and resourceful.</p>

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<p>^True, but the students who prepare the most are the ones that have the most choices and the easiest of the tough time. They don’t even have to be the brightest students (I certainly was not the most innately brilliant in any of my classes), they just have to have a good sense of what they’re getting in to. Basically, I think people should just not get discouraged, and shouldn’t discourage young people from reaching for what they want, they should just be willing to put in the work, get creative, and stay hopeful.</p>

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<p>Staying hopeful is one thing, but people need to weigh their options before blindly plunging ahead and incurring crushing debt. It really alarms me that people are incurring 6 figure debt as undergrads and another 6 figures for grad school. It is very difficult to figure out what your future will be when you have so much debt to repay and limits your choices and is a HUGE drain on your cashflow for decades.</p>

<p>There are more and less expensive ways of obtaining graduate degrees. Not enough thought and consideration is given to these differences and what it will mean for the future of the individual involved.</p>

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<p>“but the students who prepare the most are the ones that have the most choices and the easiest of the tough time”</p>

<p>^^^ Sorry to disagree, but the tougher the times, the more luck trumps everything. All of the applicants for a recent position in my office were excellent candidates, but the one who got the job was the neighbor of one of the senior attnys. And a friend (Wesleyan undergrad, Harvard law) working at one of the courts reports a similar phenom.</p>

<hr>

<p>I’m with you HImom: I find the debt load terrifying. Moreover, this generation seems particularly impatient and not optimistic, but each one convinced that s/he will be the one to land the $160K job at the big firm - - talk about your “Hoop Dreams.”</p>

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<p>Luck certainly plays a role (it did for me), but preparation shouldn’t be discounted. I think it goes hand in hand with not indulging in too much magical thinking regarding student debt. You can’t assume that a job will be out there, and to maximize your chances it’s a good idea to do all you can to prepare yourself to meet the realities of the field you hope to enter. And you have to accept that even with all that you do, as I’ve said above several times, it may not work out “according to plan”. </p>

<p>Of course, everyone’s experiences are different, I can only speak for mine and those of my recent grad friends with which I am familiar, which are likely different from yours as an employer.</p>

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<p>For some reason, perfectly bright people (including med students & other folks) think that somehow they can declare bankruptcy & somehow erase their student debt. My understanding is that student debt is NOT discharged in bankruptcy and I have read quite a few articles about this. I hope they can handle the rude awakening when they realize that the $250K debt will be there with them for many, many years. It’s a larger debt than many people take on to buy a place to live! I really don’t think most students are capable of fully understanding that level of debt and what it means for the rest of their lives.</p>

<p>This is yet another thing that folks have to consider when they think about whether to marry or make other commitments–their combined debt load. There was a thread about this as well. I wouldn’t be very happy to see my kids saddled with sharing 6 figure debts of their sweethearts (fortunately none on the horizon at this point). I know that this was a factor raising concern for one of my friends when her D announced her engagement & later married. (Fortunately for them, both have gotten good, high-paying law jobs and are paying a mortgage on their new home as well as his loans.)</p>

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<p>I often think that, after “how to get admitted to college” and the mysteries of financial aid, the most misunderstood topic here is the relationship between one’s major and future job possibilities.</p>

<p>True, some career paths require that you study specific academic tracks. Eg, if you want to be a highly paid economic analyst, you’d better have studied economics. But, plenty of administrative, analytical, marketing, policy, non-profit, governmental, entrepreneurial, etc, starter jobs are available to kids who majored in fields they loved. Then, as they garner experience, if they are talented performers, they can move forward.</p>

<p>Take history as an example; it’s the most targeted major on CC. The kid who majors in history DOES have a shot at a decent career outside academia, if he/she graduates with some valid work experience, internships, college research, or whatever applies to the particular jobs applied for. Many colleges actively promote internships and other oppportunities for current students- either during the school year or in summers- because they know this is a needed advantage. </p>

<p>Employers want hard-working new hires who “can hit the boards running,” who have solid analytical, reasoning and writing abilities, who understand the employer’s needs and can make a contribution- and who can navigate office politics. The kid who simply ambles through the college years, maybe has a summer job at a pizza joint or babysitting, or has a campus job in the school cafeteria, isn’t going to show this sort of desirability when starting a post-grad job hunt.</p>

<p>That’s my soapbox. Of course, it’s a tough world out there. The wise kids don’t let any moss grow on them.</p>

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<p>S&P, I’m not dicounting preparation!! In fact, I often chide my interns for not working hard enough - - most recently two Smith students (class of '11). One of them remarked that, before receiving my invitatin for an interview, she had become quite discouraged, having applied for 5 posisitons and receiving no response. I told her (probably snapped more than I intended to) that 5 apps was nothing - -she should be prepared to send out 5 app each week! The second student was woefully unprepared for the interview and offered unfounded opinions as if they were fact. I offered both young women part-time position in order to offer the the guidance I hope my own D receives at her internships. (As an aside, sadly the Smith students as a group present more full of themselves or entitled than other undergrads - - an affliction from which my own D also suffers. Fortunately, the condition abates by they time they are in law school. Still, it is something I have been meaning to address w/ CDO.)</p>

<p>In any event, my point is simply that w/i the current calculus, luck is often the most important factor.</p>

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<p>I kind of think the current economic situation makes it hard to have really sound discussions about long term cost benefit. Its like discussing the best deal in an umbrella during a category 6 hurricane - “he got a really high quality umbrella and rain coat, but he still drowned”</p>

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<p>@Nyc - I’m sorry and surpised you had such an experience with your two Smith interns! I laughed at your one Smith interns experience. I wish I could tell her that when I was trying to get an internship in DC (and this was BEFORE the recession) I applied to no fewer than 30 places with no response. Sometimes everyone needs a little perspective! </p>

<p>I do think some Smithies do not take advantage of the resources and advice of the CDO, and so they miss out on the good stuff on offer like interview prep. There’s a wealth of resources, but you have to take initiative to get yourself out there. You should definitely bring up your concerns with the CDO, they take the school’s reputation very seriously and will use your concerns to improve student training.</p>