Recommend Computer Sci school for son

Parents Forum
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<p>I need some suggestions for schools with good Computer sci depts that might be a good fit for my son. I should preface this with the fact that this is kid #2. I helped DD with her college search 8 years ago and felt very confident with that one. We had a nice list of schools ranging from sure safety to reach and pretty much pegged it in terms of admissions and fit to her academic and social style. So, it feels a bit strange to be so confused about DS.</p>

<p>DH and I think DS is quite bright. He was accelerated in math in middle school, so that he is now taking AP calc as a junior. He is interested in programming and is taking AP computer science this year. But he is not quick (ie speedy), and I don’t think his SAT scores will reflect his true potential (that's a whole different thread :) ). My guess is that he will score 550-620 verbal, 670-740 math. He currently has a 4.0 gpa, but i think that APUSh will put an end to that. He got a 740 on the math level 2 subject test. </p>

<p>We really didn't want to pay full freight at a private university again. So, I was heartened to learn that our state university (U WA) has an excellent computer science department. However, an article just appeared in the paper about the lack of opportunities at the UW for prospective CS majors: 4/5 of students who wish to major in CS are declined after taking their intro courses. Even students with a 4.0 in the intro class are not getting in. Sooo, that means we really need to look elsewhere. We don't want him to have to transfer after his first year-just to study what he wants to.</p>

<p>So, I am looking for suggestions for schools to consider. Here are the specific questions:</p>

<ol>
<li>Where might a kid with, say, 580CR 720M, 3.8-4.0 GPA apply? We know of some schools that are generally well regarded in CS and are looking into CMU (obviously a reach) and U Rochester and Case Western Reserve. Don’t know anything about Purdue, and Pitt, although I’ve seen them listed for CS, as well.</li>
</ol>

<p>We don’t want a school with a religious affiliation, not preppy, no big greek scene, not too conservative. Don’t want technical institutes (because of tendency for large gender disparity and also lack of diversity in majors). I am not anxious to spend nearly private school tuition at a U Cal school-particularly since cutbacks could mean it takes longer than 4 years to get all the required courses to graduate. But a couple UCs do look interesting. Any ideas? Anything left?
We would prefer the west coast, but that is not a requirement.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>How do you judge a CS department (other than looking at where the faculty got their degrees? I don’t know which courses they should offer) As I have become aware that most CS students do not need graduate degrees, it seems like it is all the more important to pick an undergraduate school where DS will get good training and good opportunities for internships, etc. </p>

<ol>
<li> Does one actually have to major in CS to get a job? ie would a related major with a fair number of CS courses suffice?</li>
</ol></li>
</ol>

<p>I appreciate any help you can offer.</p>

2

<p>Consider Big Ten flagship U’s in the midwest. Illinois (a top and first for comp sci), Wisconsin (another top), Minnesota for example. On the U of Wisconsin CC forum there is a link (last post 12-06) to the OOS tuition charges for all Big Ten schools- some very reasonable.</p>

<p>A math degree with comp sci courses is often enough for jobs. However, it sounds like getting the comp sci courses is difficult at your UW, unlike mine. A large public U may be a good fit for your son. He may have to look beyond your region to find a good more affordable school that fits his criteria.</p>

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<p>This is for grad schools, but is a good start: [Top</a> Ranked Computer Science Schools & Best Computer Science Colleges](<a href=“Web Page Under Construction”>Web Page Under Construction) </p>

<p>You can probably look at the requirements for a place like Carnegie Mellon for what a standard curriculum should cover. </p>

<p>I think majoring in CS is extremely helpful, but of course there could be combinations of major and minor that are successful. </p>

<p>Summer internships are pretty plentiful and well-paid for comp sci students, which may help with the money concerns.</p>

4

<p>Ratings of CS departments are HIGHLY controversial right now (massive faculty protests, not about how their own schools are ranked, but that the ranking systems aren’t measuring anything meaningful). I wouldn’t really trust any of them right now.</p>

<p>The good news is that almost any kid will will get what they need from any CS department that’s large enough to have enough coursework. Bad news is that CS is currently in very high demand, so there may be lots of schools limiting the number of CS majors.</p>

5

<p>You may want to ask in the University of Washington forum exactly what the procedure for getting into the Computer Science major is, since the newspaper article may not have the full story or be completely accurate.</p>

<p>UW lists both Computer Science (in Arts and Sciences) and Computer Engineering (in Engineering) as “competitive admission”:</p>

<p>[UW</a> Advising - List of Majors](<a href=“http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/majors/majoff.php]UW”>http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/majors/majoff.php)</p>

<p>Both are run by the same department.</p>

<p>[Computer</a> Science and Engineering](<a href=“http://www.washington.edu/students/gencat/academic/cse.html]Computer”>http://www.washington.edu/students/gencat/academic/cse.html) says:</p>

<p>

</li>
</ol>

<p>In other words, a freshman applicant can be admitted directly from high school. However, those not admitted directly from high school must take the prerequisite courses and then apply for admission to the major.</p>

<p>For lower OOS list price, consider Minnesota Twin Cities, Virginia Tech, Cal Poly SLO, and Stony Brook. If a school near Silicon Valley is desired, there are Berkeley (a reach with those test scores) and Stanford (reach for everyone), but also San Jose State, UC Santa Cruz, and Santa Clara University. SJSU has the lowest (OOS) list price; Stanford is the most generous with financial aid, while the UCs and SJSU are unlikely to give much for OOS. (try the “net price calculator” at each school)</p>

<p>Many people do go into computer software jobs from non-CS degrees, though taking CS courses does help. The CS courses whose concepts are most commonly used in industry software jobs include operating systems, algorithms and complexity, computer networks (sometimes found in the EE department), software engineering, databases, and security.</p>

<p>For lesser known schools in CS, you may also want to check for [ABET</a> -](<a href=“http://www.abet.org%5DABET”>http://www.abet.org) accreditation, as it indicates a minimum standard of quality. However, there are good CS degree programs (including some top schools in CS) without ABET accreditation; it just means that you need to individually evaluate offerings of schools without more carefully.</p>

6

<p>My son has decided to take the awesome scholarship offer (free OOS tuition) from the University of Alabama. He will be studying computer science and will be in the honors college. It sounds like your son could very well qualify for free tuition if he took the ACT or perhaps retook the SAT. </p>

<p>We’re from Michigan and had a few good local state schools to choose from…but after a lot of research (and a strong positive vibe from the computer science professor during UA Campus Days)…UA it is.</p>

7

<p>The Alabama full OOS tuition scholarship needs a 3.5 GPA and 30 ACT / 1330 SAT CR+M for engineering (which includes CS at Alabama), 32 ACT / 1400 SAT CR+M for other majors. Deadline to apply is December 1.</p>

<p>[Scholarships</a> - Undergraduate Students - The College of Engineering - The University of Alabama](<a href=“http://eng.ua.edu/undergraduate/scholarships/]Scholarships”>Scholarships – College of Engineering | The University of Alabama)
[Out-of-State</a> Scholarships - Undergraduate Scholarships - The University of Alabama](<a href=“http://scholarships.ua.edu/types/out_of_state.html]Out-of-State”>http://scholarships.ua.edu/types/out_of_state.html)</p>

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<p>I noticed some of the elite/Ivy schools- including Harvard- were ranked much lower than other schools for grad schools in comp sci. You need to consider the overall campus culture when considering schools. Alabama may fit one Michigan native, but not everyone. It depends on the liberal/conservative nature of your family and surroundings. For example, the Seattle culture is very different from many small towns in Washington. Your son may be able to get into UW-Seattle’s comp sci program- best for him if he can. It sounds like they limit the major there as they have limited facilities, unlike UW-Madison. When considering schools look at the offerings at your UW since it is a highly ranked U in the field and be sure similar courses are available at the other schools your son considers. It would be a shame to go to a school and not be able to take some courses because they don’t have them at all.</p>

9

<p>The other UW (Wisconsin) is a great overall choice. Bill Gates likes it.</p>

<p>[Bill</a> Gates surprises students as “stand in” professor (Oct. 12, 2005)](<a href=“http://www.news.wisc.edu/11679]Bill”>Bill Gates surprises students as “stand in” professor)</p>

10

<p>Purdue is awesome but OOS / IS delta is nasty. Nice tie-ins to other departments around campus. </p>

<p>There’s different options for comp sci, and different specializations for things like computer graphics and the like; overall, it is a hard major to do well (easy to graduate, but not everyone has the ‘talent’ to crank out code with the best of them. </p>

<p>I’d rather go to a smaller school and avoid the TA flood; back in the dark ages at Cajun State comp sci was a humongous department, and all 100-200 level classes were taught by TA’s. Smaller programs may have more profs involved, and believe you me, there is a huge difference.</p>

<p>Also, look for ‘brand name’ profs to help with career and the like. A friend graduated from Purdue with the famous computer security guru as his advisor, and he described it as an incredible experience. </p>

<p>So, to summarize, try to find a ‘focus’ in comp sci (graphics, security, theory-brrrr, human computer interaction-my cup of tea, and so on) and see what schools pop up. </p>

<p>Random schools that pop up: Iowa State, a friend’s kid is doing BS Software Engineering there, awesome school. Indiana University has some interesting media stuff plus medical informatics; U Texas has a good program also; CWRU is very good; and so on.</p>

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<p>Note how public flagships come up instead of Ivys for comp sci. Having TA’s for labs and discussions is a good thing. You can research course details, including who is teaching and numbers of students in sections online now. You can also see crosslisting of courses- eg in math or engineering departments. You can also see how they deal with comp sci- its own department or part of another, in engineering or letters and sciences… There may be a subset of majors or concentrations. UW has only majors and no minors but offers “certificates” in some fields where students meet certain course criteria even though they don’t have enough credits for a full major. You can check on the comp sci departments and compare opportunities available on and off campus. You want a program that seems to help its grads by posting what to do with the degree et al.</p>

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<p>mommeleh, my D is about to transfer from the local CC to a directional state U (one that merits no mention here ;). Despite having the associates, excellent grades and being ‘well prepared’, according to the faculty adviser who reviewed her transcript, she will only be admitted to their CS program once she’s completed courses at that school and is accepted into the program. They say it is an impacted major, but in the overview presentation the faculty adviser said they would like to enroll more students. I have yet to understand this, unless it is a quality control issue. Why UW would reject 4/5 students is beyond me, especially when some of the rejected students are getting 4.0s in their intro courses. Maybe someone can enlighten us on this point?</p>

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<p>Wow. Didn’t expect so many responses so quickly. Thank you! I will definitely look into some of the suggestions made. ucbalumnus, we are aware of direct admission. From what i have read, about 30 of 1000 applicants receive that (with some being oos). So, not holding our breath on that one. When we went to an open house for the UW (WA) CS dept last year, they said about 1/3 get in. So, the newspaper may not have all the facts, but i think they are close enough. It is unfortunate because even if my son might have something of a chance, we would not risk his needing to transfer. We know of people whose children didn’t get into engineering and transferred to another WA state school. It is really a shame.</p>

<p>I am assuming from some of the responses (and my own inclination) that a big university will be a better option than a smaller private university. Presumably for course offerings. Is this the general feeling? What do you think about places like Case and Rochester? Brandeis?</p>

<p>I will look into U Ill and U Wisconsin. If my son could get into Berkeley, i think I wouldn’t mind the extra tuition so much. wdaveo, a free ride does sound wonderful, but i think wis75 has a bit of a point - I think Alabama might be just too different culturally for my son. (or maybe, that’s me…)</p>

<p>I have to go read more about U of Ill. I don’t know much about it. Wisconsin might be a good choice since it has a reasonably large oos population. I don’t want my son to feel like one of the few kids from outside the region. I am originally from the east coast, and i think some of those schools might be candidates too. U Md? Northeastern? Any thoughts?</p>

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<p>Treetopleaf, i think it is just a matter of money. Or lack thereof. The Seattle times article mentioned that the UW faculty joke that they could start a very fine college with the rejects from their major. A faculty member from Stanford commented that the UW CS dept members must feel evil for rejecting such qualified candidates. I don’t fully understand, myself. It has been suggested that tuition should be higher for some of the more expensive majors (like engineering). I would be happy to pay. Meanwhile, with microsoft and amazon and expedia in our backyard, we can’t manage to admit local students to a CS major.</p>

<p>Interestingly, the parent of the engineering major who had to transfer to another state u to study his major told me that he would have done better to go to cc. Apparently the advisors sometimes recommend that: If the student gets 4.0s there, they are more likely to be admitted than with lower grades at UW</p>

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<p>Well, he should apply to UW CS/CE and see if he gets in as a freshman. If he gets in but not to the CS/CE major as a freshman, then it comes down to whether he wants a go there needing to pass another admissions hurdle to enter the CS/CE major.</p>

<p>Some other things to consider in the latter case:

  1. What type of GPA is typically needed to get into CS/CE for a sophomore/junior applying to the major?
  2. Are there other majors (e.g. applied math or statistics) that leave enough schedule space to take several upper level CS courses?
  3. If #2 is true, do the desired upper level CS courses have space for non-CS/CE majors?</p>

<p>Note, however, that it is likely that many other schools may have similar admissions hurdles to declare popular majors.</p>

<p>For Berkeley, a student can do CS either as an Electrical Engineering and Computer Science (EECS) major in the College of Engineering, or a Computer Science major in the College of Letters and Science (L&S CS). EECS is generally thought to be harder to get in as a freshman; all freshmen entering L&S enter as undeclared. L&S CS used to be a major that one had to apply to declare with a high GPA, but in more recent years, it has not been very popular, so the GPA threshold is only 2.0 now (though this can change). Changing into any engineering major at Berkeley requires applying to change with a high GPA.</p>

<p>For San Jose State, each major has different thresholds for admission. [SJSU</a> Admission](<a href=“http://info.sjsu.edu/web-dbgen/narr/admission/rec-1212.html]SJSU”>http://info.sjsu.edu/web-dbgen/narr/admission/rec-1212.html)</p>

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<p>One way to evaluate the quality of a CS department is to investigate the career services for CS - who interviews at the school, what percent get hired, etc. This is easier said than done at some schools, I know. At our directional U, I learned this by attending an info session and was very encouraged to learn that national companies recruit there, kids often get paid internships, companies have good things to say about hires, etc.</p>

<p>Another approach is to look at which CS courses are scheduled at the school (not what is in the catalog, but what courses are scheduled, and when). Better schools with bigger programs will have greater offerings. The local privates I looked into were pretty weak in this regard - some courses never being offered over the course of two years, for example, some only offered fall semester every other year.</p>

<p>Coursework for CS majors varies from school to school. Some CS majors are offered within the college of Engineering. You will meet engineering school requirements (Calculus, Physics, Chem, etc.) in addition to meeting CS major requirements. You won’t have to take many LAS courses for an engineering CS degree.</p>

<p>Some CS majors are more math-major oriented, offered within the LAS school, require far less science, more LAS requirements (more English, History, etc.) and more non-CS math.</p>

<p>And some CS majors outside of engineering schools require some science (e.g. if they are ABET certified) and some calculus. Some require less science, less or no calculus. Some offer business course options to allow for a business or accounting minor.</p>

<p>If you are trying to become a professor of CS, or hope to attend a highly ranked masters program, then of course you want to attend the highest ranked school you can manage to succeed at and either do the engineering school degree or the math emphasis degree. But if you want to go to work in industry with a BSCS, you can attend these unranked programs and expect to gain employment on graduation.</p>

<p>Or in other words, if your kid doesn’t get directly accepted into UW, take a hard look at the other state schools and see what they offer. They probably have fine CS programs with very qualified students.</p>

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<p>A shout-out for Iowa State University and the University of Iowa. ISU probably has a slightly stronger program but both are solid.</p>

<p>Iowa has about 45% undergrad population from OOS. ISU has about 40% undergrad from OOS.</p>

<p>ISU tuition/fees/room/board is $27,000 per year OOS. He would probably receive merit aid also. They have a scholarship estimator on their web site.</p>

<p>Iowa is about $30,000 or so per year after merit.</p>

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<p>You mention not wanting to pay full freight for a private. </p>

<p>So, what is your desired budget? Some OOS publics can cost as much as a private did 8 years ago. :frowning: For your D, you probably were paying about $40-45k per year for a private. Some OOS publics cost that much or more. :(</p>

<p>Since your son is only a junior, he has time to bring up his scores to improve his merit chances. Some of the Big 10 and other OOS publics will require higher stats to get merit. UMich would cost $50k per year. Purdue…somewhere around $40k per year.</p>

<p>Have your son take the ACT as well. Get him some practice books.</p>

<p>Yes, Alabama would give him good sized scholarships if he increases his scores. Since he’s only a junior, it’s possible. With a 1330 M+CR SAT or a 30 ACT and a comp sci major, he’d get free tuition PLUS 2500 per year. </p>

<p>Good program, ABET accredited, gorgeous campus, friendly people… :)</p>

<p>Don’t fear schools that have a party element…there are parties at all schools. My Tufts nephew swears that the best parties are at MIT…so he and pals take the public transportation there on weekends. The thing is that STEM majors seem to be more able to keep things in check…focused during the week and while studying on weekends, but able to relax and socialize here and there.</p>

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<p>One more thought - CS is a hard, stressful major for most people. I would only send the strongest of students half way across the country for that major. I would want to be able to get the kid home for a weekend, or be able to stop by to take him/her for a meal out, if the kid wanted that option or might need that support. I took several CS majors courses at one of those big Midwestern ranked flagships, and knew quite a few kids who left that school because they were stressed out and unhappy working so hard for such crummy grades so far from home. I also knew a few who dropped out, never to be heard from again. One fellow I recall fondly, as he was every bit as capable in CS as the others, but he couldn’t hack the Chem and Physics required by the engineering school major. For a kid like that, a ‘lesser’ program with fewer science requirements might have been perfectly doable. I hope that guy found such a program and ended up with a four year degree, but I’ll never know.</p>

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<p>I would look into some nearby state schools, such as Washington State, Oregon, and Oregon State. They appear to have good reputations in CS.</p>