Recommended Schools

College Search & Selection
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<p>@"Erin’s Dad"‌, even taking into account the size, I did not see many students. I went to four open houses and socialized with a lot of the other students. I didn’t see many LAC students at all and the ones I saw were from places like Reed and Amherst (I also met a girl from Oberlin last summer). So while it seems that the top LACs (especially Reed, Swarthmore and a few others) do very well with PhD production, it seems like the others do not fare nearly as well.</p>

<p>Also the schools I visited were one’s that come up very frequently on this list of top applicants so you would think that the top students from places like Lawrence University and the other schools (besides schools like the ones I mentioned) would have applied there.</p>

<p>Anyway, this is just based on my observations visiting schools, and also participating in two REUs during the summer. The one I did last summer had mostly students from less well known LACs. While there are great students from these schools, they definitely do not have as many research opportunities or the opportunity to get published. While publishing is not necessary, it certainly helps when applying to places like Harvard, MIT, and Stanford. Research experience is probably the thing in your application that makes the biggest difference.</p>

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<p>@Poeme‌
Based on everything ds has been told, I agree with your last statement. I know ds was also told by deans at various depts that getting actively involved in undergrad research beyond bottle washer can be very difficult in large depts and programs with large grad student populations. A handful of undergrads will be successful at this, but many in large depts are just not going to get the opportunity. (those are deans’ words, not mine.)</p>

<p>Ds had one dean flat out tell him that the research opportunity he was being offered by our local university could not be matched by their institution b/c grad students were filling those roles. Ds opted not to go to the local school, but he did choose a school where he had guaranteed research opportunities. I also know that what ds has been told repeatedly does not conform to a simple answer of attending schools x,y, or z will mean likely grad school acceptance. It has been far more inline with what the IL physics professor wrote–undergrad research, GPA, GRE, LOR. </p>

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<p>Oh, I should add that the one physics dept that ds eliminated during our visit (it was a truly horrid experience. Shocking attitude by the undergrad advisor. He had complete disdain for his classes full of NMS and AP students that didn’t know how to think. He ranted and raved. Unbelievably unprofessional. ). His response to the question about undergrad research was to seek it out via REU opportunities. He also didn’t know anything about where his students went to grad school. Obviously undergrads were at a serious disadvantage in that dept. </p>

<p>The point is…meet with the dept. Talk frankly about what you seeking. You might be surprised by the responses. Ds certainly was. Every dept had a different feel, different attitude. You want a school that is going to help you succeed in your goals.</p>

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<p>Yes, I do think it would be very helpful to speak with the department about grad school opportunities if you are thinking about going to grad school. If the school sends a significant number of top grad schools then the grad schools know the school which makes it easier for them to gauge a student’s preparation. Many of these schools are universities and some are LACs. If a student comes from a school that is unknown to these grad programs, it’s much harder for them to gauge the applicant. High PGRE scores can help remedy this, but many students at less well known institutions are disadvantaged taking the PGRE if they lack a solid preparation. While @xraymancs says that the undergrad physics curriculum is standard, that in no way means there aren’t huge variations in difficulty/grading as well as the level of the average physics student at each school.</p>

<p>Another thing is that while grad students may be an obstacle at some universities, at many schools they are an asset. This also varies heavily by PI. Many of the grad students I met as an undergrad became great friends and mentors. I learned a lot from them.</p>

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<p>As @MYOS1634‌ suggested, I had a more extensive conversation with my parents about the financial aspects of the situation. It turns out that my previous comments were completely off the mark since I did not have knowledge of all the details and was trying to be as conservative as possible. My parents can afford to pay around $40,000 per year for college without sacrificing their retirement savings and without loans. Combined with the advice given by @ucbalumnus‌ in his first post in this thread, that seems to total out to around $50,000 per year (excluding any merit scholarships or other financial aid). For anything higher, they still wouldn’t mind taking out loans (a large portion of which I of course would take responsibility for paying off).</p>

<p>At the moment, I am having trouble deciding whether I would be better off at a research university or a LAC. I’ve read what @Poeme‌ posted above regarding most LAC’s and, while I don’t have the knowledge to determine if his views are correct or not, he seems to make a very logical point. It sounds completely plausible that the physics departments of most LAC’s won’t offer the recognition and research opportunities that most research universities would. On the other hand, I am also concerened about attending research universities where undergraduates are completely neglected and where it would be a significant burden to access the necessary oportunities. How would I discern if either of these is the case? By talking to current physics majors? Or are there other methods?</p>

<p>Ultimately, I want easy access to meaningful research opportunities not only during the summer but also the school year (a.k.a. research universities) as well as an environment that significantly focuses on undergraduate teaching and development (a.k.a. LAC’s). Are these two qualities mutually exclusive? Medium-sized schools (i.e., Case Western, University of Rochester, etc.) seem to fit the bill but I’m not completely sure if they do or do not.</p>

<p>Based on all the comments on this thread so far, I have an itch to focus only on research universities and the top physics LAC’s (Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams, Carleton, Bowdoin, Lawrence, Harvey Mudd, Grinnell, New Mexico Tech, etc.) and narrow further out of this pool. This would be even more ideal considering that only top LAC’s seem to offer engineering programs (which I could take advantage of if I decide not to do physics). Is there any downside to this strategy? Would I potentially miss out on schools that would otherwise be good fits?</p>

<p>@Poeme‌:</p>

<p>I first heard about the CCS at UCSB a few months ago and will almost certainly apply there. However, due to a lack of information, I have no idea if I should consider that particular program a safety, macth, or reach. It personally sounds like a reach to me. </p>

<p>@Mom2aphysicsgeek‌:</p>

<p>Can you tell me more about the physics department and its research opportunities, both inside and outside of CBHP? It sounds like a great program, and one that I will definitely apply to if I apply to UA, but one that I may not get into. For that reason, I’m wondering if I’d still have the same opportunities at UA without CBHP. </p>

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<p>@Episteme the two criteria you mention are not mutually exclusive by any means which is something a lot of people don’t realize. At my university, I received a wonderful education and many of my professors became great mentors. They were always willing to speak with students to provide help or even just general career advice. You just have to approach them and go to office hours and they will be very happy to get to know you. At some universities this might be harder to do, but you have to remember that professors have a lot of passion for what they do and in most of my observations they love to share their enthuasiasm with students, even undergrads.</p>

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<p>@Poeme‌:</p>

<p>If you don’t mind me asking, what university did you attend? (I’m sorry if I missed this information in one of your previous posts.)</p>

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<p>Physics is not that popular a major; it is entirely possible that many LACs’ physics departments are too small to regularly offer the core junior/senior physics major courses at reasonable intervals. The LACs that are generally considered stronger at physics include Oberlin, Reed, and Harvey Mudd; there may be others. You may want to check how frequently core junior/senior physics major courses are offered (the bare minimum is once every two years, but once per year or every semester is more desirable). Of course, talking to the department about PhD program placement as noted previously is a good idea.</p>

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<p>My ds met with Professor LeClair, the undergrad advisor, and he hit it off with him immediately. Dr. LeClair spent over an hour with him, taking him around the dept, talking to him about different opportunities, and making suggestions for a 4 yr plan bc our ds was already taking jr level physics courses and has more math credits than a physics major requires. Fwiw, the suggestion that only top schools offer great teaching is simply opinion of those posters. LeClair’s background, for example, is definitely not what one would classify as “poor quality.” :

</p>

<p>CBHP guarantees you research in a field of your choosing. The program has the entire first floor of the honors college. The 160 students (40/yr) have access to all the facilities of that floor: private study rooms, computer lab, lecture hall, and ds points out–their own 3d printer. ;). Ds is super excited about the opportunities available through the program. It is a great group of students and the leadership team is very supportive.</p>

<p>But, even for students not inCBHP, there are definite research opportunities. UA also has something called Emerging Scholars. <a href=“http://emergingscholars.ua.edu”>http://emergingscholars.ua.edu</a> I am not overly familiar with the program since ds is in CBH, but if you ask on the UA page, I’m sure someone there can answer your questions.</p>

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<p>Sorry I’m not taking the time to quote previous posts, but just wanted to emphasize that for undergrad physics there are a ton of research opportunities at Harvey Mudd (or through HM). My DH graduated from Mudd (and ultimately got his PhD in physics at Caltech) and did research with several Mudd professors and also did some summer programs at Lawrence Livermore and UCI (which came about using Mudd connections). He felt extremely well prepared for Grad school and loved the whole experience.</p>

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<p>@Mom2aphysicsgeek‌, I think that just goes to show that people underrate the teaching at a lot of state schools. Even at a state school (or larger private school), you can still have a supportive professors who care about teaching and mentoring undergrads and a warm environment in the major. This seems to be especially true for larger schools with honors or research programs.</p>

<p>I think that if someone wants to go to an LAC, it should be because they want to go to a smaller school with a more tight knit college community and they like the overall environment of the school (most LACs I know of are significantly smaller than the smallest research universities except for Caltech), not because they have better teaching. That is just not true</p>

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<p>^poeme: we’re not going to go over the perennial discussion of LACs vs. research universities, are we?</p>

<p>OP:
(just in case)
Research universities focus on research, rather than on undergrads. Professors’ research has to come first (for tenure and promotion). It doesn’t mean they’re unpleasant and yes they can be care about undergrads, it’s just not a requirement. In the same vein, research universities don’t focus on undergrads, but it doesn’t mean undergrads can’t do research. In “smaller” majors, especially if they’re advanced, they’ll get rather smaller classes (but keep in mind the size of the non-major classes, especially during the first two years, therefore investigate Honors Colleges).
LACs focus on undergrads and hire professors and promote them based on their integrating undergraduates to their research. That research may be less cutting edge (or not). In smaller majors, advanced classes are likely to be offered once per year or once every other year. The many classes outside your major are likely to be smaller and the type of good teaching found in 3rd/4th year seminars is likely to be found right from the first year.
In short:
Include a good mix of both research universities with Honors Programs and LACs, with perhaps one safety of each type, and you’ll see after visiting, talking to people, etc, what shakes out. You will change still (hopefully!:!:slight_smile: between now and May 2015, so don’t close any door yet.
So: CalTech and HarveyMudd, UA Honors and Lawrence. :slight_smile: :)</p>

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<p>@Episteme‌
Have you ever heard of Malcolm Gladwell? He has a book which discusses should students be the big fish in the small pond or the small fish in the big pond. Someone else posted this link to a talk he did at Google. It is worth watching to simply see the stats he posts:
<a href=“Why Did I Say "Yes" to Speak Here? | Malcolm Gladwell | Google Zeitgeist - YouTube”>Why Did I Say "Yes" to Speak Here? | Malcolm Gladwell | Google Zeitgeist - YouTube;

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<p>Completely disagree with that. Being a big fish in a small pond for too long will just make the transition to the big pond (real life) harder. I saw this in undergrad. Some kids who came from less rigorous high schools had a very hard time adjusting to Penn, some never did. By contrast, I went to a very rigorous high school where I was challenged. Though I was in the top of the class, the other people at the top were also incredibly smart. This helped me transition to college as well as deal with setbacks I have encountered in my higher education.</p>

<p>In the end, in order to succeed, you need to have developed resilience and be able to understand that you will never be the smartest person. Sure you may be very strong in certain specific areas, but there will be other people who clearly exceed you in others. From being in such an environment not only do you have the opportunity to learn from your peers, you can also learn to identify your strengths and weaknesses.</p>