Because Harvard and Yale have two admitted student pools, athletic recruits and others. The recruits average SAT scores are MUCH worse than the other pools, but there are few of them. MIT does not have a separate pool for athletic recruits, and as such their scores are not significantly different than any other admitted students. If you exclude the athletics recruits from Yale and Harvard, the average SAT scores for Harvard and Yale are even higher than those of MIT, albeit not by much.
On the contrary, if you took out the lower level accepted recruits than the scores would be quite a bit higher wouldnât they?
@moscott - There is no way to answer your question meaningfully. If Ivy league schools (and perhaps you mean HYP only) and MIT admitted students based on SAT scores and athletic prowess only, then it would be possible. All those schools admit students holistically, so SAT scores are only a small part of the process. What are the average SAT scores for non-athletes at HYP and MIT? Are you assuming they are the same? I venture to guess that if there is a small difference in the scores of the student populations as whole, that there would be a similar small difference when comparing the scores of non-athletes at those schools.
I disagree with your assertion that it is harder for athletes to get into MIT versus HYP. For some it is and for others itâs easier to get into MIT as an athlete. In general HYP admits better athletes than MIT does. If youâre just below the âathleticâ level at HYP for the coach to want to secure your admittance, then you will have an infinitely better chance getting in at MIT if MIT admissions determines that you can do the work at MIT.
The average SAT score for non-athletes could be computed easily enough. The premise of the topic is that Ivy legaue schools accept lower level kids(grade wise) while MIT does not.
âThe test is a simple one. If the student got a serious injury in the summer before starting at MIT and could no longer play their sport, then would MIT still be the right match for the student. If the answer is yes, then being a recruited athlete can really help your application. If the answer is no, then being an athletic recruit cannot save you.â
Now the overall average of accepted students enrolled at Harvard for SAT is 2255. Meanwhile the overall average for MIT is 2220. Now since MIT doesnât lower itâs standards, the true average SAT score for everyone on campus is 2220. However since Harvard athletes score an average of 173 points lower(2082)but the overall average is 2255, then if you removed the average recruited athlete score Harvard students would score significantly higher overall than MIT. Thus making it easier in a sense to get into Harvard as a recruited athlete than MIT.
Here are some personal experience. At IVY, during a camp, by son asked the QB [who was helping out]; and he mentioned his SAT score was 1700. At MIT, coaches would not even recommend if SAT scores are less than 2100 [as has been mentioned here several times, MIT has no concept of likely letters, everyone has to follow the same stringent admissions process, most of the guys that even the coaches recommend do not get thru]. At IVY, if you are a very strong athlete, with not very poor acads - coaches will get you in.
I can now see why some student athletes prefer to get accepted through the regular channels and then walk on. At least there is no question over their suitability.
Itâs simple. Maybe this will help. MIT has different academic requirements than the Ivy League schools. None of the Ivy League schools have requirements as tough-and there is no getting around them. There is no point for an admissions officer or a coach to advocate admitting any students who lacks strong evidence that they can pass ALL of the following six science core courses (in addition to a hefty 8 course requirement in Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences (HASS) Requirement):
- Single-Variable Calculus
- Multivariable calculus
- Physics 1
- Physics 2 (a 5 on Parts 1 and 2 of Physics C AP test receive credit for only Physics 1)
- Introduction to Solid-State Chem or Principles of Chemical Science
- Biology ( includes the fundamental principles of biochemistry, genetics, molecular biology, and cell biology). There are no alternatives to these courses.
There is no math for non-math majors or environmental science instead of biology. Many students with 5âs in AP Cal, Physics, Bio and Chem still struggle with these classes. So, the pool of athletes that can devote enough time to their sport to excel while also getting 5âs in AP courses (or the equal) in math and science is limited. And that limits the pool of athletes that MIT can choose from. At the Ivyâs students can take less rigorous courses and major in a less rigorous major. That does not exist at MIT. So the argument about SATs being higher or lower for athletes is pretty silly for MIT. There are no academically weak students at MIT. They could not get by the requirements. There are no poetry or sociology or human development majors filling their math requirement with Math for non-majors and taking Global Warming as their science. There are no legacies who can choose to avoid the tough courses and make up their major so they do well. There is no bottom of the math curve at MIT-they create one with a pool of students who got mostly 800s on their SATs and 5s on APs.
@moscott - I will agree with you that it is easier for a great athlete with an 1800 SAT to get into Harvard versus MIT. It is also true, though, that in general a very good athlete that gets no help from the coach at Harvard, will have a much easier time getting into MIT if that athlete has a 2100 SAT or higher.
You say that MIT doesnât lower its standards for recruits and I think thatâs true. But the SAT standards are lower than what the average accepted student scores. MIT admissions looks for students who will be successful at MIT and they state that in general applicants should have 700 or higher in each subsection of the SAT. So if a particular recruit that the coach really wants scores around 2100 on the SAT, then in most cases that recruit will be accepted. Itâs also possible that athletic recruits at MIT do score lower on the SAT than the non-athletes at MIT. In fact I bet thatâs true although I would expect the difference to be fairly small.
Perhaps it would be more fruitful for you to ask why the Harvard SAT average is 2255 vs 2220 for MIT. Does Harvard give more credit for high SAT scores? Does MIT look for other attributes that will get a 2100 applicant in while a 2400 is rejected?
GrudeMonk, what is the point? The difference in SATs between the two (2255 and 2220) is not significant. The pool of athletes who will be successful academically is smaller for MIT then for the Ivy schools. The point isnât just that it is easier to get into Harvard but that it would be easier to succeed at Harvard then at MIT unless the student was outstanding in math and science. Athletes donât just have to get into these schools, they have to stay in. Since tests are graded on curves, and most MIT students enter wtih 800 math scores and a lot of success in math and science, a student that lacking that background will simply fail out of MIT. Admissions of athletes has to take that into account. No use in recruiting students who canât make it there. I doubt Harvard cares that much if their athletes had As in high school calc and AP Physics if they have credentials to show theyâd do fine in the humanities. Once admitted they have far more leeway and can avoid tough courses.
@lostaccount - I agree with you completely. I donât know what the point is either. The questions I asked were to try to get @moscott to get to the crux of what he actually wants.
This is an interesting discussion, particularly the case in post #8 where the kid turned down a likely letter from an Ivy League school and then got deferred at MIT . . . if that kind of thing happens often, to me thatâs a cautionary tale about athletic recruiting at the school.
Itâs not easy by any means to get a likely letter from an Ivy League or other top academic D1 school, either academically or athletically, but there are some checkpoints built into the system at these schools. Coaches are supposed to get a pre-read from admissions on a recruitâs academics, before inviting them out for an official visit, and coaches have a sense of what kind of Academic Index scores are needed to be in the ballpark (AI is easily calculated). By the time a coach offers to request a likely letter from admissions - and each team only has a specific number of slots for this - the number of surprise ânoâ decisions from admissions should be small.
But perhaps thereâs a similar process at MIT and that case is an outlier . . .
MIT doesnât offer a pre-read for athletic recruits, and thereâs no slot system for athletic teams. I mean, keep in mind that MIT is Division III, which by itself suggests that athletic recruitment is less valuable in the MIT admissions process than it is at a Division I school.
MIT admits about 30% of applicants who are designated âart, music, and athletics starsâ during the admissions process â i.e., recruited, in the case of athletics, or given a very favorable portfolio review, in the case of art and music. This is a much larger number than the overall admit rate, but means that about 70% of these âstarsâ are not admitted.
Which, again, is the main issue. I completely understand the issue of wanting to ensure an applicant can survive the MIT academics. But, if you have someone who can no question, and is a great academic achiever, and who is also a great athlete, why not offer them a slot? These are the players that MIT loses to Ivies and other higher level D1/D3 schools.
Well thatâs an interesting system. As long as athletic recruits get clear communication from the coaches on how the process works, so they can make informed decisions, fair enough.
I do think it would be hard to turn down an Ivy League likely letter slot for a 30% chance at MIT but thatâs just my thought.
Bluewater since you used my post as reference, I can reply that its not hard to turn down a IVY LOI . Just never felt comfortable there. We had discussions with the MIT coaching staff about their recruiting success and the likelihood of acceptance, and felt comfortable with it. The success %'s that were given were far greater than 30%. But they never guaranteed admittance. We were fully aware that we could be starting over on 12/14 and were comfortable with that also. Based on the contact we had with the coach after decision day, they were just as surprised about being deferred.
Whats harder to turn down is the full rides at good schools when they decide to go the IVY/MIT routeâŠ
Thanks for the perspective @jenroypa and thatâs great to hear that the coaches were clear about the situation.
I hope it didnât come across like I was questioning your daughterâs decision as obviously I donât know anything about her situation . . . I was speaking more generally about weighing an offer from an Ivy League coach to ask admissions for a likely letter, where due to pre-reads, slots etc. the odds of admission should be good by the time it gets to that point, versus the situation for athletic recruits at MIT.
First post here but just wanted to add that my son also turned down an Ivy LOI to apply early to MIT. After official visits and weighing his options, he decided to apply early to the school he most wanted to attend regardless of guarantees and such. As a strong applicant (36 ACT, NMSF, Robotics lead, ranked 1st in his class, etc) he was willing to try his luck but ended up deferred. He then turned down another round of likely letters because he couldnât commit to them until his deferred status is resolved. He is well aware that the chance of admission is slim but thatâs the path he chose.
Bluewater, we thought our son was crazy to turn down his offer of a likely letter. The Ivy was his second choice, had everything he wanted from a school, but it just wasnât MIT. Now this was a kid who didnât want to have to take any foreign language, philosophy, religion, or classics requirements, yet wanted a strong science college in the Northeast and a decent team to play on, so he was really limiting himself as to where his back up college applications could go. Nor was he the kind of Intel winner or academic super star you would expect could get in to MIT, so of course we wanted him to take advantage of a sure thing!
As it turned out, the coach had 9 of the kids he supported admitted EA that year. But this year only two were admitted and another was deferred. If you are invited to come for an overnight visit they are generally pretty serious about you. Our son had overnights at 3 different schools and his MIT stay only reinforced his belief that MIT was the place for him. He decided he would take his chance and it was very, very, fortunate for him that it paid off.
@stsm087 and @Moominmama58 It does sound like MIT has a clear approach to athletic recruiting, where some recruits will be admitted but no means all . . . glad it worked our for your son Moominmama58 and hope it works out for yours stsm087.
We have a good friend whose kid is an athlete at MIT and was recruited. As I understood it, the coach said that because she had very good scores (2100+) and academic rigor in HS that he could get her in. The kid was also recruited by Penn which also said it would ensure they were accepted.
I wonder if the coaches get a certain number of admits as long as the kid meets certain minimums.