Without doxing myself, I would say that I disagree to a large extent. You can do meaningful research anywhere. I agree with that part. A small LAC is unlikely to have a 10-color FACS sorter, a transgenic facility, microscopy facility, sequencing facility, powerful NMR etc. Most PhD grad positions in the US are supported by one of two ways – either via training/center grants or by the PI. Training grants are great but limited in number of students they can support. Also, outside of top programs, they are rare. A research professor at a medical school is likely responsible for generating 75%++ of his/her salary at an R1 school. It is not altruism but survival of the fittest. NIH grants have two clear sections that evaluate pedigree: one is called investigators, the other one is environment. This includes pre-doctoral and post-doctoral awards. Also, for these awards, support letters matter heavily during review. I don’t know where you work but most places I know pay a heavy emphasis on history of funding AND ability to attract funding – something most schools do a pi$$ poor job of inculcating into their students and trainees.
Take it for what it is worth. It is survival of the fittest with a huge dose of cronyism built into the system. @Andygp is probably going to make up his own mind. I am done and good luck.
Yes, as a research professor at a med school with >75% of my salary funded by NIH grants, I am well acquainted with all this stuff. I am fine with agreeing to disagree and also don’t want to argue.
I know we’re all just trying to help this candidate in a somewhat unique situation find a school that is a great option for them, and they’ve gotten some great suggestions.
Thanks much for all these discussions. I feel following based on what I know about LACs based on research and large well funded research schools based on my PhD from there.
To do undergraduate research in a large public University with a close interaction with professor is unlikely but if you can get it somehow it will be great experience.
For research oriented LACs it will be easier to get to do research with faculty member or even members but that research is unlikely to be well recognized, which is OK at an undergraduate level.
I personally feel at undergraduate level small and intimate setting may be better for overall academic and research growth for most average/above average kids, which I believe my kid is.
Everyone’s well researched opinions are very welcome. They will be useful for me and my kid.
I know you’ve mentioned Wooster a couple times, but their sophomore research program is quite strong particularly in the sciences and also, every student is required to complete a unique piece of research through their Independent Study program in their senior year, which is similar to a master’s thesis, and I think is an impressive accomplishment when applying to grad schools.
As an example, here are the research positions posted for the spring semester.
They are out of spots - they were deciding between St. Olaf and Kalamazoo. I think they were confident K could get to the # but weren’t sure about St. Olaf - and were reaching out vs. applying to both since they hit the magic #20.
Looks like about $44K minus merit so @aquapt is on top - we’ve talked about so many schools.
Looking back at the thread, I think they closed strong with some schools that will hit the # so I’m excited to see where they end up.
I hope it’s Florida - sounds like warm was a preference and I think more discussions were happening with Rollins.
That’s awesome about ESF though - I went to Syracuse (granted 30+ years ago) and we knew ESF was there but there certainly wasn’t integration like this. What a great way to experience SU on the cheap if one of the majors fits.
We did apply to Geneseo. ESF we were considering but eventually chose Geneseo primarily because Geneseo clearly mention the merit for international students and seems to have decent Biochemistry program.
Yes. I think we have now finalized on Kalamazoo. He is writing the final essay at least for this year :-). Once the results start coming in and if we get into multiple options, I will certainly count on this group’s knowledge in selecting the final one.
It looks like Wooster is need-aware for international students, the COA they quote is $76k and it looks like the most merit aid they offer for international students is $30k. They do also offer need-based aid to international students, but will you qualify for any need-based aid due to your strong assets and salary?
Basically, are you willing/able to pay possibly $46k to attend a school like Wooster (plus travel)? And have you run the numbers/read the international merit aid policies at all the schools you are looking at?
Is your top number $35k/yr? Or is the top number dependent upon specific schools?
Exacly. I went to a small LAC where there was plenty of research going on, but none NIH funded. I was involved in a project where we threw a Hula Hoop into the river, and then groped around and counted the mussels inside the hoop. We typed up a little poster, but never published. I still had my pick of PhD and MD programs…
Yes. At this stage the top number is dependent on the school as well as what choice if any we have. Yearly income is not that strong by US standards. Savings, retirements etc. may be. Let’s see. Not much can be done now other than waiting for results. At this stage Kalamazoo and Geneseo are looking like the cleanest possibilities which could bring the cost @30k or less.
Good luck to you and your kid.
Like I said, there are plenty of respectable public universities where your son can get the best of both worlds – meaningful research through the honors college along with smaller classes.
If your son is going to seek a PhD and will likely need some sort of visa sponsorship for post-doc beyond OPT, it would be outright ridiculous to not seek out the most rigorous research track.
