Reject Train Going Full Speed

@HKimPOSSIBLE First of all, many congratulations on all of your amazing acceptances. Two world renown, top notch research universities, one of the most competitive programs in the country, and three top liberal arts colleges. What a difference a year makes! I think it is time for you to bid a farewell and good riddance to the Reject Train.

I agree with @Lindagaf - I think that Bowdoin or W&L are your bestchoice. On the other hand, USC also seems to be a good option, if they come throuygh with the funding.

However, a full ride to a school like Bowdoin has many more advantages than are immediately apparent. Colleges with large endowments (relative to the number of students) provide many different opportunities like fully paid study abroad, tight and supportive alumni networks (my kid who attends Midd was looking for a place to stay in Chicago over the summer, she posted this on the alumni FB page, and had a number of offers within a day, and both Bowdoin and W&L are almost certainly the same). Mac is another great option, as well.

While UIUC is a top school, and UIC has many advantages, especially for low income Chicago area students, neither of the offers seems very attractive. if you want to attend medical school, I would recommend a premed at W&L, Bowdoin, Macalester, or USC on a full ride, rather than GPPA. First, they’ll cost nothing, so you can defer any loans to the future, second, most importantly, most premed students decide not to go into med school, and the opportunities for a student with a bio undergraduate from a top LAC are far better than from UIC or even UIUC.

Congrats, again!

The expense of SoCal is a good point to consider. When extra funds are scarce, they can add up and make a difference in your opportunities and quality of life.

@ArbonneMom Decisions come out today so! Fingers crossed! I hope he gets in

@privatebanker I wasn’t expecting much from Union, I applied last minute. I applied to one of their more selective engineering programs so that may be why.

Well, folks we did it! We have now reached the final station and it’s time to make some decisions.

A huge and amazing thank you to everyone that has supported me and given guidance so that this year was a grand slam!

So, what happened with Rice??

@HKimPOSSIBLE ,
IF you getting the FA you need, go to USC.
You wont regret it!
My DS was also accepted at many top college, but decided to go to to USC .
He recently received his PhD from Cal Tech.
Take advantage of ALL the opportunities available at USC for top students, and you will find doors across the country will open for you.

@brantly I don’t think he’d have been that coy if he’d gotten in. (Or we’d all be mad!)

But still, great options! Bowdoin, W&L, Macalester, Grinnell, USC, UIUC, and UIC GPPA - is that the list? (And sounds like UIUC isn’t a strong contender because of concerns about ongoing eligibility for the full ride.)

I don’t think USC gives no-loan aid packages to anyone but QB-match… unless they extend that to QB-RD also?? Otherwise I don’t think USC would be a completely debt-free proposition. But I see the appeal since you’ve always leaned a little more toward research universities than LAC’s, and you love the idea of California. (Also it’s a terrific school for non-major musicians.) Things to investigate there: 1) Cost of living - make sure you wouldn’t have to settle for substandard off-campus housing after a couple years on campus (not all areas around campus are particularly nice/safe, and the nice/safe housing could be very expensive. 2) All-inclusiveness - do students tend to need a lot of spending money to enjoy themselves? 3) I’m not an expert on this but I’ve heard that coming out of a California school isn’t particularly advantageous in terms of med school admissions. Still, there’s a lot to love about USC, assuming your FA package is satisfactory.

Among the LAC’s, the subliminals I’ve been getting say that Bowdoin is the front-runner - is that true? Would they all be debt-free? (I don’t recall hearing that Mac has no-loan aid.)

I’d also dig around in how each school is handling the current pandemic situation. This will likely continue to be an issue in the coming year, so I’d be looking for a school that has taken particularly good care of its students in the past few months and has been effective at adapting to these difficult circumstances.

Congrats on having a really great array of options!!

I may have already mentioned this elsewhere, but HKim will be able to do research if he attends an LAC, and in fact, might have an advantage. D attends an LAC. She and many of her friends have done research at top universities. Being at an LAC is not a barrier to doing research.

I’m telling you unequivocally that students are able to form great relationships with professors at LACs early on that simply may not be possible (or be very difficult to achieve) for frosh and sophs at research U’s. These relationships can be crucial in helping students be competitive for research positions.

@aquapt makes an excellent point in post #987. There is some truly bad off campus housing at USC. The neighborhood is not good, as in…bad. And, especially as an upperclassman, having a car will almost certainly be necessary. Gas is expensive. Life in So Cal is expensive. It’s going to be hard to live there cheaply. Not trying to bash USC, as my family are Trojans. Just making you aware of reality.

It’s also true that things can get tiresome as an upperclassman at an LAC. However, by and large, students at LACs, especially if there is a city nearby, feel very content. If you do crave that urban vibe, then Mac is an excellent option. I think it’s a little overlooked by some people, perhaps because it’s in the Midwest, but it shouldn’t be. With Portland so nearby, I also think Bowdoin should be a top contender for you.

I think the main drawback of a place like Bowdoin is not research or anything or like that, but the environment, meaning diversity, fit. An international Asian from Illinois (Chicago?) is going to feel a lot more comfortable at USC, imo, than any of the other colleges on the list. College is a place to meet people from other parts of the country/world, but I think you need some comfort as well. And it’s not a LAC thing either, if the OP was fortunate enough to get into Pomona, Oxy or St. Marys, I would recommend those as well.

Hi @HKimPOSSIBLE. Now that you have a clear picture of your wonderful options, you do have a hard decision to make. You wanted choices last year. Now you’ve got them–an embarrassment of riches (a good problem to have). Here are a few things to consider in this final stretch to help make your final decision. Please note in terms of full disclosure, that I have two children who are first years at USC (also KAs from Chicago). I have never been to Bowdoin, and conducted research for a week at W & L/Lexington, VA. I am primarily focusing on Bowdoin, W & L and USC based on your most recent comments. I agree with others that UIC GPPA does not compare to these other outstanding options in terms of quality of education and opportunities for growth.

ACADEMICALLY:

  1. 4-year Plan: One exercise that might be helpful if you haven’t done so already, would be to create a 4-year plan for each of your finalist schools to see what your classes will actually look like. When my S19 was deciding between Northwestern, Cornell, and USC, we did this, and it was evident that NU and Cornell had many more stringent GE requirements and were very stingy about accepting AP credits.

  2. Compare Course Catalog to Course Schedules: Maybe this is less relevant for a pre-med student, but if there are classes you’re really interested in, check as many years of class schedules that are available online to ensure that courses in the catalog in which you are most interested are actually offered on a regular basis. There are many approved “ghost” courses that will exist in the catalog, but are almost never offered. For my son’s history specialty, this was a very important exercise to weed out school curricula that looked good on paper, but did not actually line up with reality.

  3. Check ratemyprofessor.com for faculty in your major: OK, I know this may be controversial, but I have found that the data there is helpful for selecting classes/faculty, esp. for S19 who is on the spectrum. If you have a particular learning style, you can get a sense as to how students have perceived individual faculty. Also, there are trends by department at schools. Some departments have excellent teachers. Others have world-class researchers who give short shrift to teaching. Unfortunately, at USC, we have found the latter to be the case in one of my S19’s double majors (History), and the Mathematics department is roundly bad teaching-wise (and surprisingly so for a school of USC’s stature) which is consistent with my D19’s experience last fall as a Viterbi CS student.

  4. Check the support services, esp. for your STEM courses: At USC, even though the Math department has notoriously weak teaching, esp. in the first-year curriculum, there is Supplemental Instruction, which was a godsend for D19 to get through her Calculus II class. See https://dornsife.usc.edu/supplemental-instruction/.

  5. Grade Deflation: Try to find out what you can about grade deflation at each finalist school in your intended major, as GPA is a major factor for med school admission.

  6. Semesters v. Quarters: W & L is on quarters, Bowdoin and USC on semesters. Think about what type of learner you are and whether one over the other poses a challenge or advantage. For my S19, he was concerned about NU being on the quarter system, because if he messed up on an assignment or midterm, it would be hard to come back from that in 10 weeks.

SOCIALLY:

  1. Tiny Rural (Bowdoin, city = 96% white, college = 61% white) vs. Tiny Urban (W & L, city = 82.5% white, college = 81% white) vs. Large Urban (USC, LA = 28% white, college = 39% white)

You’re coming from a large metropolitan area that is about 32% white in comparison. On the other hand, your HS (New Trier IIRC) is about 80% white. So if you were comfortable there, then you should be fine at any of the above colleges.

On this note, however, I will share my own sense, that I have concerns about you going to school in Lexington, VA, where Lee-Jackson day is state holiday, and W & L only recently began to observe MLK day as a school holiday beginning in 2015. There have been/are ongoing debates about the confederate flag on campus and in the city. I was shocked when I visited that gift shops sold confederate memorabilia as well as other racially cringeworthy “memorabilia.” I realized then that I “was not in Kansas” anymore, but in the South with a Confederate history and tradition where the casual racism was in the air you breathed. It made me feel off-balance all week, and I was glad to leave when my research concluded. I haven’t seen “Get Out” yet, but how people talk about the “sunken place” reminds me of my week in Lexington and on the W & L campus. To W & L fans/alumni, my apologies for sharing these candid thoughts based on my personal experience. But I do want to provide @HKimPOSSIBLE with useful information/perspectives from which a decision may be made.

Compare this environment to Bowdoin, Maine which is a liberal environment, and Los Angeles which is definitely a multiracial city in a progressive state. (And of course, LA has the highest KA population in the US, with plenty of Koreatown restaurants a short Lyft ride from USC.)

FINANCIALLY:

  1. Loans and Housing: Since you are getting a full-ride at Bowdoin and W & L, my main concern about you going to USC has to do with your finances. I fear you may get loans in your package. You’ll find out soon enough this week. And I am concerned that because on-campus housing is not guaranteed after your second year, your housing costs could increase significantly, or you would suffer subpar housing for your last two years. My D19 has found an off-campus apartment for next year that will be the same or less than on-campus housing, but she is sharing with two other students (although each gets their own bedroom). I don’t know what will happen to my son’s housing costs after sophomore year, so that is a concern. Please don’t worry about references that some make about USC being in a “not good” neighborhood. It is plenty fine. The campus is a hamlet-fortress (with the good and bad implied), and with both the light rail stop on campus and free Lyft rides between 7pm and 2am, you will be fine with basic city smarts, esp. if you are accustomed to navigating Chicagoland, the el, CTA and Metra.

CONCLUSION: If I am correct and you get loans in your USC package, I would tilt Bowdoin. Even if you don’t get any loans in your USC FA offer, I think Bowdoin is still hard to beat. Being at a small LAC with small pre-med classes is significantly different from being 1 of more than 3100+ first year students at USC. In fact, the USC freshman class may be double the entire UG enrollment at Bowdoin! There are more bureaucratic hassles when the class is this large that you won’t have at Bowdoin, whether it’s navigating advising, housing, FA, etc. Plus, the fact that you will build much closer faculty relationships in such an LAC setting is also very important. And I have been somewhat disappointed by the teaching at USC in both the History and Math departments based on my kids’ experiences. While you can get a great LAC education at W & L, and their Johnson Scholar program does sound amazing, the drawbacks and red flags discussed previously make Bowdoin a much better choice IMHO.

You’ve come this far with incredible maturity and wisdom, @HKimPOSSIBLE, so in some sense, I don’t think you need anyone’s help to make your final decision. Congratulations again on your incredible journey. I hope you will stay in touch with your legion of fans to keep us updated on your future successes along the way!

FWIW,

CollegeOdyssey2001

Excellent assessment @CollegeOdyssey2001

Thank you everyone for such a detailed response!

The decision making it much harder than I thought but I’ve narrowed it down to four schools being:
USC
Bowdoin
W&L
UIC (typically 7yr bs/md)

But I will have to say regarding WL is that I agree with @CollegeOdyssey2001 with it having the “Get Out” vibe - in fact during the Johnson weekend the group of people I hung out actually mentioned it “felt like Get Out”.

People were nice but we (me, and my group - students of color) did get some stares and looks which had a subtle but noticeable difference in how I felt back at home (Northshore suburbs of Chicago) which is also predominantly white.

I feel like in terms of fitting in, I really would have no problem with a majority white school like CollegeOdyssey2001 mwntioned - it’s the type of environment I grew up in. In fact I really don’t like to use “white” or “people of color” in general as race wasn’t something I really noticed being important growing important (albeit a very important topic).

However, I spoke with WL’s medical school advisor and while it seemed to show some great things like mock interviews and a surplus of resources for abroad experiences, I was a little disappointed. No nearby hospital for Pre-Med opportunities, and the vast majority of medical school applicants were graduates. They said the average MCAT score was a 511 - around 38-40 students are Pre-Med every year with only 4 or so scoring a 95th percentile on the MCAT or higher.

For UIC GPPA, it feels like home to me. It’s in Chicago, (although the commute would be more like 2.5 hours roundtrip), my brother went there (and will finish his last year there) and etc.

On the other hand, I DO need a get a 513 on the MCAT which is a pretty considerable score which I’m sure I’ll be able to achieve, but in that case, why restrict myself to U of I College of Medicine when I could find school with more financial support or just a breadth of learning.

For pro’s, it would put ease onto medical school admissions - saving both time and mentality from making medical school applications fit in my schedule.

Research would be top notch and finding a hospital or internship would be no problem. I guess I would say the same for USC - they have Keck School of Medicine right on campus.

Agree with all of the above. I’d add that W&L has the third highest median family income among elite colleges in the US (only Colorado College and WashU are higher). Only 1.5% of W&L students are from the bottom 20% income bracket, and 83% are white. They also have the smallest international population of all OP’s schools. (4%) Bowdoin is more diverse than OP’s high school, but W&L definitely is not.

In contrast, I feel as if Grinnell isn’t getting quite enough airtime in this thread. It has the highest percentage of students in the bottom 20% income bracket of all the private schools on OP’s list- 6.3% - and the highest percentage of international students - 18%. It’s a driveable distance from Chicago, and the school provides shuttle service to Chicago Union Station for school breaks. Their med school acceptance stats are excellent and I believe they cap loans for low-income students at 2K/year if the info I found is current.

Racial diversity: percentage of white students as a proxy for (non)diversity (international students are counted separately whether they’re white or not):
W&L 83% white (4% international), Bowdoin 64% white (5% international), Macalester 64% white (15% international), Grinnell 52% white (18% international) USC 39% white (14% international)

Economic diversity:
W&L : https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/washington-and-lee-university

Bowdoin https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/bowdoin-college

USC https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/university-of-southern-california

Grinnell https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/grinnell-college

Macalester https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/macalester-college
Percentage of students in the bottom 20% income bracket, W&L 1.5%. Bowdoin 3.8%, Macalester 4.6%, USC 4.9%, and Grinnell 6.3%

USC is alternatively known as the University of Spoiled Children. Don’t imagine for a second that there aren’t plenty of super wealthy kids there. I imagine that many of the less well-off students are commuters, of which there are a sizable number.

I haven’t noticed in this thread that HKim is particularly worried about the racial makeup of the student body. Did he express a desire to be with more Asians, or any other particular race for that matter? Genuine question as I don’t recall it being a focus of his, and his response above seems to indicate that he’s not much worried about that.

Because students at LACs are generally close knit and tend to do a lot of free or very low cost campus activities together, I do think that differences in wealth aren’t quite as noticeable as they might be at USC. Most students live on campus for four years at LACs. That will not be the case at USC, where 70% of undergrads live off campus. What type of college experience matters to HKim?

Would that be true at W&L as a whole, where about three quarters of the students join fraternities and sororities (so any close-knit-ness could be more within the fraternity or sorority house)?

I didn’t know Hkim went to New Trier. Just for people not familiar with this suburban school in Illinois… It’s a very wealthy school profile. Maybe one of the wealthiest in the state including yours. He won’t feel out of place at any of these schools. Old article but you will get the idea.

https://newtriernews.org/features/2012/12/03/but-how-do-other-schools-see-you/

@HKimPOSSIBLE I haven’t followed this whole thread, but wanted to reach out because my daughter is a freshman at Bowdoin (now home due to pandemic). If you have any questions about Bowdoin, I’d be happy to try to answer them as best I can. She’s not pre-med but is Biology, Environmental Science, Ecology and Visual Art minded. USC and Bowdoin are both tremendous schools but pretty different experiences. (My daughter’s best friend is at USC, pre-dental). Let me just say that my daughter LOVES Bowdoin. She’s Asian american and grew up in Hawaii. Don’t let Maine put you off. It’s just a very different experience than USC.

@Lindagaf , yes, I remember the days as a UC Berkeley freshman laughing at that “University of Spoiled Children” put-down whenever we would play USC. (Guess it made us feel better about our clearly inferior athletic teams at the time–Go Bears!) But let’s face it, as @aquapt detailed, none of the highly rated/regarded schools @HKimPOSSIBLE is considering has a critical mass of low-income students, not even Grinnell which is best at 6.3% and certainly not USC at 4.9%. So the wealth gap will be noticeable at any of these finalist schools. (More on that later.)

As for whether HKim cares about the racial makeup, that’s up to him to decide. I simply offer my perspective as someone who, like him, grew up in the midwest with KA immigrant parents and attended a predominantly white HS. I definitely grew and benefit from going to school in Berkeley, CA, where the racial diversity was strong (before the devastation of Prop 209). I was able to take Asian American Studies from Ron Takaki, a world-class historian and best-seller, and Michael Omi, a leading sociological theorist on race, and Elaine Kim, who forged Asian American literary criticism and mentored Viet Nguyen (my classmate and now USC professor of English and Pulitzer Prize winner for his brilliant work of fiction, The Sympathizer.) Being able to walk into that Wheeler Hall Intro to Asian American Studies class my freshman year in an room full of 200 other Asians blew my mind! At the time, like HKim, I did not think race was central to my identity and I felt comfortably assimilated among whites. But the experience of learning with, among and from other people of color from all walks of life in college and graduate school transformed me in a very positive way–in ways I had no way of appreciating before leaving my hermetically-sealed, racially homogeneous prior existence.

Race still matters in higher education because racial inequality persists in a variety of forms, subtle and not-so-subtle. It still matters because race is not simply a matter of internal self-identification, but also one of external ascription by institutions and society at large. As Cornel West has noted, while race may be a “social construction,” it doesn’t make the difficulty of hailing a cab in NY any less “real.” In Lexington, as HKim disclosed, his Johnson scholar cohort was racially cognizable. It is exactly this hypervisible, fishbowl-like existence that SOC find it difficult to shake at PWI’s and cities that are 80+% white. Beyond the negative external ascription aspect of race, on the positive side, I truly believe that learning and complex problem solving benefit from diversity, as economist Scott Page’s work on “the diversity bonus” has demonstrated. See https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/home/the-diversity-bonus/
In other words, socio-economic diversity is not only important as an atmospheric or liberal ideal, but as a methodological approach to solving our world’s most intractable problems.

In closing, maybe I undersold USC in my earlier post, as its student population is a clear strength. On the wealth disparity front, USC students know that there are many students who are very wealthy and lead very different lives. But for my D19 and S19, they have a wonderful time at school spending very little money. This is the part I wanted to ask HKim about: What are your hobbies and what do you like to do for fun? These questions are important to consider the social fit and prospects for forging your friend group at your selected college. Do you like dance/hip hop by chance? If so, there is a “Freshman Dance-off” at USC where people with no dance experience to a lot of it can get involved Fall of their first-year in the annual competition sponsored by the KASA, open to all students. It’s very welcoming, a great workout, where students forge close bonds. My D19 loves hip hop dance, and this was a key, free activity that formed her main social group. My S19 loves sports. The Lyons Center and other fitness centers that are free. You can play all kinds of refereed intramural team sports that cost only $25/semester or $40/year. Across from the freshman quad, you can attend basketball games for free (with many free t-shirt giveaways), and a range of PAC-12 games at no charge as a student. The only charge is for the football games ($200 for 6 games). There are lots of activities by one’s college and major that provide additional opportunities for socializing and professional development. There is not enough time to do all the campus has to offer, most of it free.

Whew. Sorry to go off on all that, but I wanted to provide a fuller context for my prior comments, esp. about my observations about racial dynamics at W & L/Lexington and why they may be relevant. Regardless, as long as you go in with your eyes open, HKim, I’m sure you will make a wise decision and you WILL SUCCEED WHEREVER YOU CHOOSE TO GO. Thanks for sharing such a fun ride on the “Reject Train” to Success!

@ucbalumnus , I personally am not a fan of Greek Life at all. USC has a notable Greek presence, about 25%. Bowdoin is similar to USC in Greek participation. Macalester and Grinnell have none. I’d be choosing one of those two?. And yes, Greek Life is expensive, no two ways about it.

@CollegeOdyssey2001 , yes, race matters. This thread isn’t about race and we need to stop discussing it here because there is only one thread for that and we don’t want to get this thread shut down. As for income disparity, each of the colleges he’s now considering is going to have a lot of rich students. People with more money can afford college. It’s up to HKim how he feels about these issues.

For many students, college is about getting out of a comfort zone. Some students want to be around others like them. Some students want what they’ve already become familiar with. Mostly, students need to think about where they see themselves thriving and being happy for four years. Each of the colleges on his list is going to help him achieve his goal.