At this point, I’m trying to figure out which of the options available to me seems better, not which of them seems less bad. I’m just not very good at not putting a lot of pressure on myself, as, uh, my transcript might have hinted at.
Seems like their study abroad is very focused on the “abroad” part. There’s, like, one place at each of a number of countries, and none in the US.
Independent study is often highly valued at the college level. It is undertaken with specific faculty members who guide you and help you develop a personal curriculum and goals.
6 Likes
Ok. That makes more sense. The courses had no real descriptions besides “independent study,” so I thought it was truly independent. As in, no faculty involved at all.
1 Like
They do present the options sorted by discipline: https://global.utulsa.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2021/06/Major-Flyers-Mathematics.pdf Maybe one of the mathy people on this thread can comment on whether any of these stands out as a math destination.
1 Like
My take on this is that if you are going to attend a lower ranked college then you want somewhere you can win prestigious masters/graduate scholarships in order to get admission to a top PhD program.
The obvious one for a math student is the Churchill scholarship and I note Tulsa is on the list of participating institutions but not WSU:
https://www.churchillscholarship.org/the-scholarship#Participating-Institutions
D went to Utah and I was very impressed by how much support they gave to candidates for these scholarships: they’ve won many Churchill scholarships and her freshman year roommate won a Rhodes scholarship:
So if Tulsa is going to offer you that level of support, go there.
9 Likes
Sometimes, it is called “research”. That would be where the student wants to explore some question or topic that is not included in typical course work. But that may be less desirable if the question or topic is something known well enough to be included in typical course work at many colleges, but is absent at the particular college due to lack of faculty interest at that college.
Wait a minute. Are you interested in Math degree without Real Analysis? That is the first course of Real Math. It is your first challenge (like Organic Chem for Chem lovers.)
Are you sure that you are actually interested in advanced Math if you are not happy with Integrals?
Calc, Differential Equations, and Linear Algebra are just appetizers 
Here is some idea…
Take a look at normal sequence of classes at school that you considered. Here is the link to GaTech. Bachelor of Science in Mathematics
I do not know much about Tulsa, but you can compare above to Tulsa and WSU curriculum. That will give you some idea how Mathy each school is…
In my time GaTech had only 2 tracks for BS in Math. Applied Math or Discrete. Now they also have separate tracks for Statistics and Pure Math… Also Math students are now lucky to study Physics there. It used to be mandatory Chemistry (which I hated)… That is another thing to consider. What other courses will you have to take (Science, CS, etc)? Will you be happy with them at both places?
2 Likes
I have nothing pertinent to add, but I will say that I appreciate hearing about the various branches of math and their applications and theoretical approaches. How any of this would actually look in real life (or a class) is totally beyond me, but it very much reminds me of my college days. I love listening to people who are passionate about their areas of expertise!
9 Likes
I’m planning on taking real analysis. I just don’t know if I want to specialize in it.
I think whether or not it’s someone’s first challenge really varies from person to person - I know some people find analysis great but hate abstract algebra. I’ve found abstract algebra perfectly fine. I haven’t taken analysis, but wasn’t that great at integrals (I mean, I got As in my calculus classes, but I feel less relatively competent), and suspect I’ll find it harder.
There are definitely distinct groups of mathematicians. Pretty much every mathematician will take courses in both analysis and abstract algebra. But not everybody goes much further than that in the subject they’re not specializing in.
My potential problem with Tulsa is not the presence of analysis courses. It’s the potential lack of advanced non-analysis courses.
This might seem unrelated to anybody not in the know, but I feel compelled to mention that I eat crunchy peanut butter and eat my corn in rows.
4 Likes
First of all I do not know much about Tulsa or WSU (so please do not keep me accountable). By looking at their sites for 2 minutes each, it looks that Tulsa is small private school with only BS or BA in Math with an option with BS Applied Math (for people interested in graduate school) and WSU has much more Math offerings. WSU has 5 separate tracks (from Theoretical to Teaching and Actuarial.) So I would be puzzled like you are. It is hard choice.
Is it possible for you to speak with Math students at both? I have a feeling that you may have more options at WSU…On the other hand if you go for grad school, Tulsa maybe fine too. Just to give you an idea… I have learned recently about Nobel prize winner in Physics, who went for undergrade to Juniata (small LAC)… So school is not a limiting factor.
I maybe wrong again, but you maybe a top student at both places. Frankly, that is not that bad. But I understand when students want to be challenged by surrounding peers.
I’ve been talking with one of the professors at Tulsa. It seems like the fact that the major described as recommended for people going into grad school is listed as applied is a bit misleading. The pure math program is actually quite good… if you’re studying analysis.
The independent study and seminar classes might allow deeper study in other areas, as might study abroad. I’m not completely sure at the moment, and still deciding the best course of action going forward.
I kinda doubt that I’d be a top student at Tulsa. Depends on your definition of top student I suppose. Although my previous math courses might mean I’m taking more advanced classes faster, I don’t think they mean I’d necessarily be the smartest person in those classes. 25% of the students are National Merit. Will I fit in? Probably. But I also don’t think I’m some sort of crazy genius. It’s more like my brain is just a few years ahead of the rest of my body.
2 Likes
Not to vote you down… But my oldest daughter was not NMF and had SAT above yours 
. NMF does not mean much. The cutoff is different at different states. Also high scores on SAT are not everything. They mean that you mastered basic Math (there is no advanced math on SAT) and read a lot (advanced Reading and Grammar), and good with SAT testing model. That does not define that all NMF can master advanced Physics or Math or study hard or get Nobel Prizes. I do agree that NMF are above average intelligence, but many of them will not go for PhD. On the other hand, there are a lot of people with PhD who were not NMF
.
4 Likes
I guess to a degree we’re looking at it differently. I could be wrong, but I’m not sure if getting a PhD requires you to be super smart. I’ve always viewed that as more a measure of dedication than intelligence. You have to master a subject, but I’d think most people could if they put in the time. It might just take more work for some than for others. At the same time, there are a great number of very intelligent people who just have no interest in getting PhDs.
It’s definitely possible that NM isn’t a great proxy for intelligence. I didn’t study either the format or types of problems on the test (too busy preparing for a robotics competition!) and qualified, but I imagine there are a lot of people who only got it because they put a lot of time into being good at the SAT specifically (or the PSAT I guess).
Even if it isn’t a 1:1 correlation though, I think SAT scores do have some relation to intelligence. And there’s obviously a relationship between high SAT scores and National Merit, even if it, too, isn’t perfect. The SAT might only have basic math, but obviously a lot of people mess it up, and it’s hard to get a great score without being either pretty smart or pretty studious, if not both.
Regardless, I already feel like I miss obvious things in my abstract algebra class all the time. Sometimes when I’ll hear people talking after a test I’ll be surprised at the things that other people didn’t get that I found obvious, but that’s a pretty small amount of the time. And even if not all NMFs are brilliant, 25% percent of the students being them means there’s a pretty high chance at least one of them will be. Granted, it’s a small school, but still.
10 Likes
I didn’t mean that you shouldn’t give it a chance. You should and you must. It isn’t just that it “it opens that door”. You need it and can’t avoid it (at least the core courses in analyses) as a math major. The question is whether you should pursue it as your primary area of study in college, if your real interest lies elsewhere.
While that may be true for some subjects, where you need to spend years gathering data, math and especially pure math is very much a test of (a particular kind of) intelligence. A friend in college (who is now a professor of pure math at Oxford) told me that a great math PhD requires 2 hours of inspiration spread over 3 years. I found that very true, though my PhD was merely competent: I guess I only had 1 hour of inspiration 
But it was truly about solutions coming to you at odd moments once you’ve immersed yourself in the problem: I did my key work in the bath and while lying in bed. I enjoy the problem solving aspect: at times I’ve done some Putnam problems for fun on a long flight. Whether you dream math is a pretty good test. I am encouraged that you didn’t need to prep to become a NMF, that’s a good sign.
I think it may be a bit early to decide exactly what you’d specialize in, I chose based on a combination of what came easily and what sounded interesting (I focused on optimization), but didn’t decide until my senior year.
But I think more important is that academia in math is more prestige sensitive than many other subjects. So if you want an academic career then you really want to go to a PhD program that is prestigious. That is hard from a lower ranked undergrad institution. Often people do a masters to bolster their credibility, the most famous one being Cambridge Part III math (which is why I mentioned the Churchill scholarship above), although i’m biased as i went to Cambridge:
https://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/postgrad/part-iii/prospective.html
What you will need is strong professor support to push you towards these things. I’m encouraged by the response you’ve received at Tulsa, and given the president was a Rhodes scholar it wouldn’t surprise me to see an emphasis on prestigious graduate fellowships as a way to build the reputation of the university (as I mentioned above it has helped a lot at Utah). I don’t know how much professor engagement you have received/will receive at WSU.
Definitely seek some opportunities to do research, and summer REUs. But I’m less enthusiastic about the idea of spending a full year abroad or transferring. To me that would be disruptive to building the relationship with your professor(s). My S18 went through the process of applying for graduate fellowships (he was a finalist for the Marshall scholarship). In building his resume (which was done with a lot of forethought starting in sophomore year) it was important to do summer internships rather than study abroad, because holding positions on campus and working closely with a couple of professors who would write the recommendations was key.
5 Likes
Including physics, chem and bio, and, if your school didn’t offer AP in those subjects, regardless of AP?
Arrange a meeting with the math advisor at each and ask them what coursework/path/research they would suggest.
Talk to the department head or whoever oversees the math program. Ask which grad programs their students got accepted to in the past 5-10 years.
Talk to a few math majors who have applied or plan to apply to graduate schools. Ask the math department/advisor to arrange a few of such meetings. This can be extremely valuable as students often share both the pros and cons.
6 Likes
Let’s say you got into one of those hyper-competitive schools…how do you know the school is a right fit for you? Because you could, does that mean you should? You could speculate the reasons for rejection until you’re bouncing off the walls, but that’s all it is at this point. These are schools that hire dedicated people for rejecting applications. It seems like a depressing job to me. My best advice is to just love the school that loves you back. I promise, you’re not missing anything by going to WSU. I went to a “non-prestigious” school, and I have a solid stable career. You will too
3 Likes
OP, about independent study it can also be done with a partner (another fellow math student) or even with a small group or students. It can be really independent like meeting with an advisor occasionally or done with regular meetings like a “tutorial” of sorts. There is a lot of variation.
Also about research it can be done with faculty from another university as well. Once you start at your chosen university and progress your advisor/mentor can introduce you to faculty at other institutions or you can independently ask to join research done elsewhere. I have first hand experience with this as my close friend attended a public university but conducted their research with faculty at Harvard. Math research is all about working in teams.
About transferring (if needed) and aid you might make it work, you never know. A lot of students transfer for location or prestige or social reasons or whatever. Transferring for pure academic reasons, especially having an advisor to advocate for you might bring better outcomes. As another poster said you are never really “stuck”. Might not always be a straight line, but there is always a way to progress.
How exciting for you embarking in this math adventure! Congratulations and good luck!
8 Likes