Religion at Fordham

[ghostbuster]

<p>sunshowers:</p>

<p>You have completely misread my comments and put words in my mouth. </p>

<p>Fordham is a Roman Catholic Jesuit College. There is an element of spirituality, religiosity and theology on campus. There is no need to apologize for it or hide it. On the other hand, as my lengthy (and several comments on this Fordham thread for several years) have mentioned, its an OPEN environment and but for the TWO theology classes that are part of the core requirements, there is NO REQUIREMENT that you conform to any belief system, attend mass or any religious activities/services. Nor will any professor or student ask you to conform to any point of view. </p>

<p>I make no apology about commenting on Epiphanies. Some students will have them (and I know several who have, by the way) and they can be related to religion, philosophy or even some other life changing event. The point I was making is that Fordham requires theology in its core for a reason and if in that experience a student comes to an epiphany about their faith (whatever faith that may be), then that is fabulous.</p>

<p>For your information, my D had a fabulous experience with both a LUTHERAN who taught her Faith and Reason (and he is now at Princeton, by the way!), and a Jewish professor. So my comments have NOTHING to do with doctrine of the Roman Catholic Faith or Christianity. That same Lutheran professor wrote a FABULOUS piece about the late Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J. whom my D met and attended his lectures before he died. She was also involved in the visit of Pope Benedict and among those few Fordham students selected to see him in a small setting at St. Josephs Seminary in Yonkers. She has gone on several weekend spiritual retreats sponsored by Campus Ministry.</p>

<p>But has friends who are agnostic. </p>

<p>Suggesting someone MIGHT have an Epiphany is neither offensive nor wrong nor false. Epiphanies are deeply personal and subjective, and by definition NON DOCTRINAL and NON PUBLIC and NON UNIVERSAL. I make no apologies about being a person of faith and neither does my D.</p>

<p>I know someone who turned down Fordham last year. When I inquired I learned the reason was because somebody on Rose Hill Society who gave them a campus tour had made snide remarks about the University Church and said, “we really don’t practice much faith here at all…its like it doesnt exist.” Which was rather shocking and incorrect. </p>

<p>We as Fordham family should never shy away from our faith and heritage (if we are Catholic) and we should embrace people of other faiths who come to Fordham, even those of no faith at all. </p>

<p>I find your commentary really offensive and out of place. There is no reason to attack me as being rude nor for suggesting a positive experience can come from a theology class.</p>

<p>I don’t know what your religious experience is, nor do I care. Good day.</p>

[sandkmom]

<p>@sunshowers23</p>

<p>I think that the OP and others in this forum including myself certainly appreciate what it is that you have to say and really there is no need for you or anyone else to be defensive about either your opinions, beliefs and/or views on religion. My point to you in my post #17 was that the added name calling (proselytizing mom), the idea that the OP should listen to YOUR opinion and disregard the others, and finally, your referring to religious dogma as crap…well, this all just might be disrespectful to someone who thinks otherwise. Maybe you didn’t mean to come across that way. But to me, you certainly did come across as disrespectful. And yes, we all could and should watch what we say on this forum and in life. I’ve written many posts on this forum and read them later to find they didn’t “sound” quite right. But that doesn’t mean we need to shy away from expressing our opinions or become some watered down politically correct CC forum either. Maybe we could just say what we think and TRY not to be unkind about it. Now onto the rest of your post…</p>

<p>First, I think you may have confused two different comments, one from gb and one from me. What I said in an earlier post was that I dislike the PHRASE, “shoved down your throat” when used in connection with religion. It wasn’t actually directed at any one individual (more than one person used it) and I don’t think that anyone’s use of it somehow diminishes what it is they had to say. I hear that phrase not only on CC but even in my own church…and from one of the lay ministry leaders. Shudder. It’s just how I feel because I personally do not feel religion is distasteful and to me, it implies that religion is just that, distasteful and hard to stomach. It also implies, to me, that anyone who believes in it must have been “force fed” because why else would they believe? But saying I dislike that phrase was just a comment. That’s all it was intended to be. Of course, I don’t like the IDEA of anything being shoved down someone’s throat either.</p>

<p>On gb’s comment re epiphanies and coming to Fordham with an open mind and an open heart…this is not something that should turn thoughtful and intelligent students away from Fordham nor should they be afraid of this. I wholeheartedly agree that college can be a transforming experience and that you should challenge yourself to be open to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Form your OWN opinions and don’t be afraid to change your mind about anything if it isn’t working for you anymore. This is college. You don’t have to believe what other people tell you to believe. You can figure it out for yourself. And don’t be afraid to take the minority viewpoint either or stand up RESPECTFULLY for what you believe in. Hopefully your years at Fordham will prepare you for, among other things, a satisfying life in which you have learned that dialogue is usually better than debate and you can remain confidently true to yourself. Now I did not find gb’s comment to be rude or hypocritical. Clearly you did. Perhaps it is because we are both coming from different places, me a person of faith, you nonreligious. I personally don’t think that nonbelievers or nonreligious persons are of lesser intellect or unenlightened and gb does a pretty good job for him or herself at explaining that was not the thought process behind the comment. It’s funny though because sometimes when I am talking about religion to a nonbeliever or nonparticipant, I feel that I am the one being judged as having been brainwashed and not being smart enough to see through it all. But I am happy with how I choose to live my life and I don’t care much about that. So you see we are not that different after all and have that in common…we’re both just a little unnerved by the idea that other people may not think we are as smart as we KNOW we are! :D</p>

<p>Enjoy the rest of your time at Fordham!!!</p>

[jptmom]

<p>I totally agree with everything that sunshowers has said. </p>

<p>Ghostbuster, I have followed your posts for several years, including those you wrote under other screen names, and while you claim to be open minded, sometimes your comments do come across to me (and apparently others) as condescending and disdainful, especially the comments you made about students of no religion, with the implication that hopefully they will find religion at some point. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, and I’m sure you did not intend to come across the way you do, and maybe it’s just me and a few others who feel this way, but the fact that we feel this way despite your contention that you don’t mean it doesn’t mean we don’t feel this way. </p>

<p>You had asked me on another post several weeks ago why I seemed to have a problem with you, and I guess that is why. </p>

<p>Sandkmom, I can appreciate your not liking the phrase “shoved down your throat” in context of religion, and I get that to you, the phrase implies that religion is “distasteful and hard to stomach” (your words), but to me, it means someone who believes their religion is superior to any other, and is trying to impose their beliefs on others. I am a religious, church going person, and I have had people of other religions try to “shove their religion” down my throat, somehow implying that my religion is not good enough and that unless I embrace their religion, somehow I am not worthy. So while I appreciate your not liking that phrase, and what it connotes to you, I can tell you that I agree with that poster because I have experienced people implying to me that my religion is somehow inferior to theirs and they do try to “shove their religion” down my throat. I actually had someone (a family member!) tell me that unless I embraced their religious philosophies, I would not go to Heaven (PS, I am Catholic). </p>

<p>I strongly believe that people should embrace their own religions, and let other people embrace their own religions. I also believe that we should respect those who have no religion, are non-believers, or are agnostic. And that means not making comments on this board or in person to others that would make that person imply that the commenter is looking down on them for their beliefs, or lack of beliefs. And I think sunshower’s description of a “proselytizing mom” indicates that he/she felt like he/she was being judged for not having religion.</p>

<p>In any event, the OP asked if religion plays a role in Fordham. To me, the question implied that the OP is not particularly religious, and wondered if he/she would feel out of place at a Jesuit university. As several of the current students reported, they are non-religious, and have not felt any pressure as a result of that. To the contrary, both students indicated that there is an openness to Fordham, that they enjoyed their mandatory theology classes, and their professors, and that they never felt pressured or put down due to their lack of religion. I think that is the important take-away to these discussions.</p>

[sunshowers23]

<p>Ghostbuster, if we were having a face-to-face conversation, and you told me: “And maybe, just maybe you will be enlightened and have an epiphany,” I would find you incredibly rude, insensitive, and offensive. Those words are basically a derogatory statement when directed towards someone who you know is not the same faith as yourself. That is why I would appreciate it if you apologized. I’m NOT asking you to apologize for your faith, only to apologize for your lack of acceptance of another’s. </p>

<p>Non-religious people don’t just want you to respect that we’re non-religious, we want you to ACCEPT it, just as much as we would have no problems with your belief in God.</p>

<p>Religion, and the lack of it, is a private issue. It’s none of your business to tell another that they might have a religious experience, if only they keep an open mind. Religion is personal-- I think we both have experienced discrimination, or harsh judgement, based on our beliefs. That’s why I try not to talk to people about my beliefs, or their beliefs, outside of an academic or respectful setting. That’s why you shouldn’t talk about your beliefs on an online forum. It’s personal, and don’t judge people for not having had some sort of religious epiphany. And don’t kid yourself-- this is a forum on religion, and an epiphany directly relates to a religious epiphany. You may not have meant a Catholic epiphany, but that’s not the point. A non-religious person does not want to be told by any religion that they are not enlightened. </p>

<p>I know-- you feel like you’re being attacked. And this is probably not the first time you’ve felt attacked for saying something about religion to other people, especially to other non-religious people. I’m just trying to help you understand what the mindset of someone who does not follow a faith is like, so hopefully you can avoid situations like this in the future. You may not feel like you’ve done anything wrong, but I’m telling you that you need to be more sensitive to the beliefs of others.</p>

[sandkmom]

<p>@jptmom</p>

<p>Not that it makes me like that phrase any better or ever want to use it but I can certainly see how it means something different to you. Thanks for sharing.</p>

<p>@sunshowers23 </p>

<p>

I’m telling you that you need to be more sensitive to the beliefs of others.

</p>

<p>Don’t you think EVERYONE could be more sensitive to the beliefs of others?</p>

<p>@OP</p>

<p>Hopefully you got what you were looking for out of this thread and it didn’t scare you away from Fordham. I think that everyone here can agree that it is a wonderful school. You will be able to fit in and find your niche regardless of your religious beliefs and you will receive a terrific education. Now for some real fun, why don’t you start another thread on race relations or politics??? :D</p>

[sunshowers23]

<p>Sandkmom:</p>

<p>I wrote: “ENFORCING dogma and other crap” was not what professors did at Fordham, “crap” referring to the action of enforcing, and not the dogma itself. If a professor decided to just teach the dogma of the Church, instead of facilitating an academic discussion on it, then, yes, that would be utter crap. I’m not attacking the Church or anyone’s beliefs at all. </p>

<p>And to the original poster: Yeah, I’m sorry this turned into a typical internet debate on religion. But I ensure you, I have not yet had someone try to debate me on my beliefs at the school. If they’ve asked what I believe, they haven’t challenged me on it. Likewise, I haven’t seen non-religious people questioning or attacking others for their religious beliefs. Students understand that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and that some students may be in the midst of trying to figure out their own viewpoints, so they don’t try to persuade them one way or another. (I’m not saying it’s never happened, only that I’ve never seen or heard of it happening.)</p>

[citygirl1018]

<p>This thread is so out of control. The kid asked a simple question of whether or not it was super religous. Her/his question was answered within the first couple posts there was really no reason for extended convo of religious parents trying to push ideas of enlightenment and saying people who are non-religious should come with an open mind implying that those who are non-religious are closeminded. Sunshowers I totally agree with you and feel ur pain.</p>

<p>@sandkmom:
When I said if you are not religious a huge church in ur face may make you feel uncomfortable you said that you could not imagine ANYONE feeling uncomfortable being around a church. You are obviously religious which is why you cannot IMAGINE someone feeling uncomfortable living on the same grounds of a church, if you were open minded you would understand how someone as myself would feel uncomfortable being around a church. I never said that I was not open minded and did not accept those who are religious. I myself am not religious but have many religious friends and relatives but thats their choice and I have no problem with it. I do not agree with religion especially christianity and catholocism for reasons I will not discuss now. For me to make such a statement and for u to totally disregard it and say you could never see anyone feeling that way like as if my opinion totally didnt make any sense I think you need a more open mind and learn more about people who are non religious and why they choose to be non religious. Religion or no religion is a personal choice and people like you and ghostbuster are exactly why I made the comment above “shove down ur throat” religion. People are not here to listen about enlightenments and “opening” their minds, this is a simple question about school and you two are good examples of people who shove religion down ur throat. For some ppl religion is hard to stomach and aggrevating…whats wrong with that?? For some ppl even those who are not religious do not find it hard to stomach and only feel its being shoved down their throats when you get overbearing religious ppl who feel it is their duty to imply their beliefs onto others as if their beliefs were not adequate enough. I never go around telling people…“you believe in god?? you really shouldnt you should have a more open mind…maybe one day you will find true enlightenment and realize there is no god =]”. I would not say that because its totally rude and not my business if you are want to believe in god. And dont feel like im attacking you some of this is directed towards ghostbuster.</p>

<p>@ghostbuster:
Most people think that its the non religious ones who need to “open our minds” but its usually the religious people who are attacking agnostics and atheists trying to force them to believe in something they clearly do not wish to. I cant remember a time I heard a non religious person saying “shame on you for believing in god” but I hear religious individuals trying to shame non religious individuals aboout not believing in god alll time. You are so obviously trying to push your own agenda here going on and on about enlightenment and religious aspects of the school. You are a good example of someone who shoves religion down the throats of others and makes it hard to stomach. I was trying to explain in my response to the OP last week that there are not people like you running around Fordham. Even though Im sure you’ll find your few just like anywhere else. I know you said in one of your posts “I make no apology about commenting on Epiphanies. Some students will have them”, but you did more than just make a comment about maybe or maybe not you’ll have an epiphany you are trying to impose that it would be a better thing if a student did have one and that “maybe, just maybe” they’ll see the light as if saying they are in the dark for not being religious. Sooo wrong. Like I said you are clearly trying to push your own agenda and not being accepting or having an open mind to those that have different beliefs as you. I hope maybe one day you can open your mind. Not to religion but to the fact that as human beings and individuals we will always be different and have different beliefs it is not your place to try and change that. You do this on many other threads as well…someone will say something or state an opinion and you will do all you can to dispute them.</p>

<p>I dont mean to sound harsh in anything I have said but Id rather be blunt on this topic and how I feel about the offensive things you two are saying than to sugarcoat what I mean to say.</p>

[sandkmom]

<p>This is my last post on this thread and perhaps the Fordham forum altogether. Everyone has gotten WAY too sensitive here including me as I sit here practically crying over this. I don’t fight with ANYONE in my life. Why would I want to argue here?!! For the most part, I have found CC to be a fun and valuable resource throughout the search and application process but most especially recently as I prepare to send my oldest kid off to Fordham. People have really taken the time to help and to offer their opinions to others. I’m just not feeling the love now and I’m more then a little scared for my S. And it’s too bad bc I just got back from a really nice day at the beach. </p>

<p>First, sunshowers23…Not that I was looking for it but you didn’t answer my question. I guess it’s possible that perhaps your failure to answer was really an answer of NO you don’t feel everyone should be more sensitive to the beliefs of others, you just felt that the sensitivity that was needed was only from gb and perhaps anyone else such as myself who doesn’t subscribe to the same belief/nonbelief system as you. I don’t know and I wouldn’t presume to guess. But my comment wasn’t meant to be a sarcastic back at you comment. I really do think everyone should be more sensitive to the beliefs of others and I was looking for common ground. I’m sorry if you took it that way because it wasn’t my intent. </p>

<p>But since you brought it back up, you may have written “ENFORCING dogma and other crap” in your first post on this thread but I read “enforcing DOGMA AND OTHER CRAP” which is what I felt lacked sensitivity to begin with. Thank you for clarifying what you originally meant by that.</p>

<p>Second, citygirl1018…

dont feel like im attacking you

</p>

<p>

if you were open minded you would understand how someone as myself would feel

</p>

<p>

I think you need a more open mind

</p>

<p>I do feel attacked and it hurts. It doesn’t make me mad. It just hurts, ok? If that was your intent and I really can’t know that but it doesn’t matter anyway, you’ve succeeded. I never said anything bad about you personally. Ever. In fact, I worded the post in which you are referring to specifically state it was about ME. I CAN’T imagine anyone being uncomfortable because they are in the presence of a Church. I’ve never been uncomfortable in the presence of any building. And I would think that if a Church had no meaning to a person they would just ignore it. I mean, it’s a building. And the “you” I was referring to you when I said you don’t have to go into it was in general not YOU specifically. So I apologize if you took it to mean YOU personally. It was a comment. It wasn’t directed at you to read “YOU don’t have to go into it if YOU don’t want to but YOU do have to accept that it is there for those who do.” </p>

<p>

people like you and ghostbuster are exactly why I made the comment above “shove down ur throat” religion.

</p>

<p>I don’t know if you know gb but I really don’t think you know ME. </p>

<p>

you two are good examples of people who shove religion down ur throat. For some ppl religion is hard to stomach and aggrevating…whats wrong with that?? For some ppl even those who are not religious do not find it hard to stomach and only feel its being shoved down their throats when you get overbearing religious ppl who feel it is their duty to imply their beliefs onto others as if their beliefs were not adequate enough.

</p>

<p>I feel like you just slapped me with that. And for the record, I never actually said I thought anything was wrong with anyone who thought religion was hard to stomach and I think I made it clear in my comment to jptmom that I could totally see how it meant different things to different people. What I said is that I don’t like it bc of what it implies TO ME. In fact, I thought my wording in that and in my subsequent comment was careful enough so that other people would understand that this phrase upsets ME. And now you have used this phrase, one that clearly upsets me, and you have used it on me personally. But yet according to you, I shouldn’t feel like you are attacking me. I really don’t see why you would say that especially knowing how hurtful I would find it. Maybe I am closed minded as you accuse. And maybe I’m just not smart enough to see it. I guess everybody gets it except me. I can only wonder if you are also accusing me of being in the overbearing religious ppl group as well but really, I’ve had enough. I don’t want to know. </p>

<p>

People are not here to listen about enlightenments and “opening” their minds…

</p>

<p>I really don’t think it’s up to you to speak for all people and what they are here for. Do not read anything into that statement other then and truly, I mean this in the nicest way possible, you do not speak for all unless all the other posters PMed you and told you to write that. And if nobody is here to listen to it then why do you keep telling me to open MY mind? I hope you can see the irony in that. I read back what I wrote about coming to college with an open mind and it had nothing to do with religion whatsoever. </p>

<p>

I dont mean to sound harsh in anything I have said but Id rather be blunt on this topic and how I feel about the offensive things you two are saying than to sugarcoat what I mean to say.

</p>

<p>You DO sound harsh to me and you have seemingly lumped me and gb together into a group of offensive religious people. I read what you wrote to gb and I have opinions on that but I don’t feel the need to share them anymore. First, because it’s not my place to address it when gb is perfectly capable but more so because I don’t think you will hear what I have to say and accept that maybe we all have an agenda here and it is just to be heard. I already feel as though this is an attack on me personally and as part of the “religious people cult” I am apparently a part of and it makes me sad enough to surrender. I still think that you can try be kind in a sensitive dialogue such as this but even if you are trying your hardest to be polite and sensitive you just can’t force people to read it that way. I fully acknowledge that many times in my posting here on CC I have read back something that I wrote and thought it sounded short or snippy. I even admit it sounded that way in the comment about the Church following YOUR post earlier in this thread and maybe in my comment about the phrase I hate. I’m a New Yorker. We’re known for it. But I have never gone out of my way to make someone feel so bad about who they are and what they believe in. </p>

<p>In an earlier post, I said that THIS Fordham forum and the school itself was open, accepting and respectful community and honestly, I am not sure I really believe that anymore. I can only hope that my S finds it to be true when he leaves for school next month. The Jesuit education was one of the top reasons he chose Fordham over NYU. </p>

<p>Goodbye and good luck all. Peace.</p>