Just the opposite. I spent time sitting thru several Duke presos, and appreciated their openness and honesty. I’ve often repeated those six factors elsewhere bcos no doubt, they apply to all highly selective holistic private schools.
That being said, you need to read the letter that you posted critically in the case of the OP: two of those factors are rigor and grades. Two F’s not only kills GPA (and rank), but also limits rigor since coursework needs to be repeated. That is a weakness of two of (the most important of) the six Admissions criteria. So yes, IMO, absent a hook, Duke and BS/MD programs are out with F’s in Frosh year.
btw: note that Duke “Considers” class rank per its CDS.
fwiw: I ran a back of the envelop calculation and if the OP gets straight A’s thru graduation, at best he’d end up with a 3.5/3.6, which would be on the lower end during application season since last semester grades would not be available.
BS/MD programs are extremely competitive, and and 3.5 (unless its TJ)…
The linked CDS also indicates only 38% of the entering class submitted their class rank. In the school district where I live and I’m sure many others, you can repeat classes in which you received a D or F. Only the grade in the repeat class is counted for the purposes of GPA calculation. The D or F gets suppressed. While class rank, may not be a deal breaker; I agree that it’s not looking promising for selective college admissions.
However, there are much bigger issues to be concerned about than selective college admissions. Why was there this much trouble with a transition to a new high school? The OP called freshman year “extremely depressing” for his kid. Are there any issues beyond academics, such as personal, family, social, medical… ones? What can be done to minimize risk of future issues, such as seeing a therapist/counselor? This also applies when in comes time to think about colleges. Even if he does get admitted, a rigorous, highly selective college that is far away from home, like Duke, may be a rougher transition that other options.
I also think it’s premature to write off any potential outcome. College admissions remains holistic and a student who has a rough freshman year but attains something akin to superstar status during sophomore & junior years may be very attractive to colleges by the time the college admissions cycle begins in senior year.
However, as I posted above, I also think that it is unrealistic for any 9th grader to be so tied to a target goal of elite college admissions or a competitive BSMD program that changes such as transferring schools, repeated a year, or homeschooling would be made specifically with that goal. Sure, it’s fine to dream at this age, but none of the proposed options would be a guarantee of anything, and each comes with potential problems of its own— so each of those options should be evaluated in the now. That is: will the student be happier and will his learning be enhanced for the coming year with this change? A 15-year-old still has a lot of growing to do-- and that includes the natural evolution of long-term goals that comes with more experience and maturity.
I agree, I don’t think any high school freshman should have his heart set on a particular college or program. Given the super competitive nature of BSMD programs that may not be in the cards any more, but honestly - I don’t think they are such a great thing anyway - I’d rather students have some time to grow up before they put on the white coats. It’s not a race. If only year end grades are reported on the transcript - and I don’t know if that was ever clarified - it may not be as hopeless as some think.
No matter what, it’s still early for this kid. We have no idea how things will develop in the next two years. I just think it’s a shame to blow his mind this soon. He may change his mind about a BSMD program- in fact, that’s likely.
And I get it, but find talking about the possible cure of straight A’s, top rigor, and some element of superstar for the next two years to be a lot of pressure. I say, let this kid explore, find his strengths.
The other thing is, when we come down hard on a junior about grade weaknesses, he or she has had time to be on their game, look around, and decide on choices, work to right weaknesses. A kid who’s just strated hs- and in a brand new environment, to boot- can’t be held to the same scrutiny, by us.
The hyper-focus on specific colleges or programs at his age isn’t healthy. He may not decide on a BSMD or be interested in Duke in 3 years. From my experience, I find it hard to believe that he is this concerned with college at this point. (We have 3, one new grad whose college interest was quite delayed, and 2 rising sophomores, neither of whom have any idea about what they want to major in or any colleges they must attend).
He would be best served by focusing on his adjustment (leaving him where he is) and letting him develop his interests.
Grades matter, but he will have the opportunity to explain his transfer and 9th grade adjustment, Also, I remember that quite a few colleges either didn’t include 9th grade grades or looked at them but were understanding when there was an upward trajectory (the opposite is what you hope to avoid).
If he doesn’t go to a tippy top undergrad or a BSMD program, but he’s a great student, he’s going to be just fine! It actually makes sense, financially, to go somewhere cheaper for undergrad if you know you’re headed to med school. Or, lots of kids do med school at their state school, which is much cheaper. My H did that (coincidentally after graduating from Duke, back when normal/smart kids could get in - now it’s almost a lottery for all top schools), and got a great residency and fellowship from state med school.
“You can’t have it both ways. Either they are lying about caring about ranking or they are lying about not caring about freshman grades.”
I have not seen any college say they don’t care about freshman grades, even ones that say they focus on 10th and 11th do not say they ignore 9th, in fact the UCs say they look at the entire high school transcript, even though they only use 10th and 11th to calculate GPA. Colleges know that kids change a lot between 14 and 18 so they’re willing to give the benefit of the doubt, esp if the student improved in 10th and 11th. However I don’t think they overlook 9th grade. Ranking is a separate issue because many schools don’t rank anymore, so it’s not straightforward to compare students based on their ranking.
"It depends on the high school of course, but in our high school you could have less than stellar freshman grades and still end up in the top 10%. Here’s what the Yale rep said according to my notes, “We read transcripts not GPAs.”
That’s’ exactly right, typically adcoms start at senior year to see the courses and their rigor and then work their way down to ninth grade. Then they’ll recalculate GPAs based on their methodology.
@mathmom great idea about getting a letter from guidance counselor in future. Thanks everyone for great feedback. Sorry got litle hectic at work last few days. We did try to find out how his school report grades, Hopefully we will get answer shortly. We do have appointment set up in two weeks with college consulting firm. This will be 2 year experiment to see if we can make lemonade out of lemon. Goal isn’t a specific school or a program anymore but to make the best of the current situation. He is on Track to end 9th grade with summer school classes calculated in with GPA around 3.15.
Don’t forget this a young teenager going through the high school experience. He/she is not a guinea pig for a two year experiment. It is a time of social growth, learning coping skills, good study habits, learning to deal with failure, and just opening their eyes to all the opportunities available out there.
Agree with everyting @bluebayou has said. In a sea of fantastic applications at Duke or any other selective school, they have to look for any teeny tiny thing that makes a difference between one applicant or another. And that difference is what gets one admitted and one not. Beside the grades, relocation was the downfall, which will be measured against other things applicants deal with. Compare that to the kid that struggled because he was living out of his car at the time…that’s a difference to consider… And it’s a brutally competitive process.
Best to set new sights and paths to college goals, and hopefully the student is allowed to develop and choose those. The bigger problem may be that the student is on track to be micro managed and have so much pressure on him the next 3 years.
My kids did not get all As in high school…and neither one of them took things like calculus in HS. They both got accepted to the colleges to which they applied each getting a rejection from one school. No big deal since the schools they went to were their top choices anyway.
Oh…and for the record, they didn’t get all A grades in college either.
They are both happy and doing what they wanted to be doing.
I think it is possible that the family moved from a weaker school district where the son was at the top of his class without too much work, to a stronger school district, where he got caught out by the expected workload, and is in the process of adjusting. I don’t see any reasons to suggest deeper problems with the son. I think the OP should back off a bit though. I think the son’s college admissions will be fine for him, however they specifically turn out.
I don’t think the “machine” metaphor or fear is applicable here, nor anywhere else for that matter. What kind of dreary, unchallenging school would it be where a “machine” or anyone trying to operate mechanically could get even a single A? Students who get A’s are flesh and blood, like anyone else. I think the comments that a top notch BSMD program would require superhuman performance from here on out are just intended to indicate that it is probably a long shot and not intended to be a prescription for what the son should attempt.
The student was at the top of his class before. Now he is not. The family also changed school districts. I have known cases where a student goes from As in one school system to Cs in another, just because a different level or amount of effort is required in the new district. This seems like the simplest explanation. I knew also of a case where a student went from As in French 1 to an F for the first marking period of French 2, due to a change in school districts, and higher demands in the new district.
I specifically object to using the term “machine” in connection with a student getting all As. It tends to dehumanize them, in an inappropriate way. The metaphor isn’t even any good for a reasonable school district because someone who approached the work in a purely algorithmic way would not do very well there.
In case it was not clear, I am suggesting that the new school is just harder.
Oh QM, you misinterpret the concern a few of us have that the family not turn the kid into a machine, not allowed to have interests, ECs or friend time, etc, as part if what OP called a 2 year “experiment,” with a paid counselor. You saw that, right?
Now let’s get back on topic. No need to nitpick a word used in empathy with th e kid.
Homework seems to have been an issue. Homework may count as a higher proportion of the grade in the new district. Also credit policies for homework are highly variable, even within a single school. In some classes it may just be checked off as done. In others, students may grade their own homework. I’ve experienced that. In others, the grading may be very exacting. Policies on late homework also vary widely. So I genuinely think this could just be an issue of higher expectations in the new school.
There is also a possibility that the most challenging questions are being put in the homework, when students have more time to think about them and fewer nerves than on an exam. Yet again as a possibility, the homework may be intended to teach concepts not covered in class, so it’s really important to do.
I am basing these guesses on the statement that the family has shifted locations. If it were just a move from middle school to high school, say, in the same district, I think the student would already be adapted. In any event, it looks to me as though it is just a case of getting caught out by an unexpected demand level. No big deal. The student has already been improving markedly in the new setting.
I’m not seeing this as a case of having to “overcome” a move, just adjust to new demands, which the son is doing. So I think he should stay where he is. If the new school is actually harder than the old, it will prepare him better for college, in all likelihood. He doesn’t need to do a BSMD program to become an MD. In fact his experience may be better if he does not.
Rather then speculating on the underlying cause the facts as stated are that the student underperformed when faced with academic adversity, a change in location and stress. Unfortunately to an admission officer at any highly competitive college that is the definition of the freshman year experience they are evaluating for. Why would they place a student in the same situation in which they previously fell short when other worthy candidates exist.
I don’t mean to minimize this students experience but it doesn’t sound unique or “true” adversity relative to any number of more compelling circumstances to overcome.
It is the students best interest to recalibrate targets and perhaps apply to Duke as a reach (with absolutely no expectations or pressure from parents).
That’s kinda harsh @Nocreativity1. No, it’s not “adversity” and of course adjusting to a new school in a different area is not a compelling or unique feat. But the fact is moving from a place where you’ve lived all your life to a place where you know no one can be very, very daunting, especially when it’s done at the age of 14. My D did it and that first year was tough. The kids at this new school had friend groups that were long established.
They had activities that they’d started well before starting high school. They had places they knew and neighborhoods with familiar neighbors. She was the only one in her school who came in knowing not a single other person. Please don’t underestimate the effect of a long distance move.
I do not think a competitive college is going to draw negative conclusions from a young teen’s stumbling as he learned the ropes of an unfamiliar high school. When my girl went to college, she was 4 years older, a lot more confident and mature, and–big difference–she was not the only one making this transition. * Everyone * was new and * everyone * was adjusting. It’s a really different phenomenon. If anything, the earlier adjustment helped her make the college transition faster. Unlike those who were experiencing the dislocation of being in a new place for the first time and were homesick, she had already experienced that dislocation and come out of it intact and successful.