Representation at Top Law Schools

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>From personal observation, it seems like, in general, it's much easier to get a high GPA from a huge state university than it is to get a high GPA from an elite university. Assuming this is true, then, a student who attends one of these universities will have a considerably higher GPA than he/she would have if he/she attended an elite university. </p>

<p>Keeping in mind how important GPA is for law school admission, how come students from these universities (ex: OSU) are poorly represented at top law schools?</p>

2

<p>The LSAT seems to be an equalizer. You would assume that students at the best schools that get graded more harshly are going to perform better in general. Plus many elite schools create a lot of opportunities for students to stand out in other ways like internships, etc.</p>

3

<p>Let me put it this way: </p>

<p>1) It is easier to get an A at a state school than it is to get one at an elite private school.
2) It is easier to get a C at a state school than it is to get one at an elite private school.</p>

<p>At private schools, it seems that professors are hesitant about handing out anything lower than a B. State schools seem to have no trouble using the full spectrum.</p>

4

<p>Well, think about it. If you're a high school kid, for the most part, you're going to go to the 'most elite' school that you can get into, to secure your future or whatever reason it may be. I think that I'll go out on a limb and say that Harvard's kids are smarter than the University of Texas' kids, simply by default. Sure, there may be some kids at UT who are so bright that they don't need to go to Harvard to shine.
How does this help? Through the LSAT. Smarter kids (i.e. Students at elite schools) tend to be more motivated, better test takers (Just take a look at the median SAT scores between schools), and are just flat out smarter. Their LSAT scores, in turn, should be higher as well.</p>

<p>And to elaborate on nspeds' comment, to trace the rampant grade INFLATION at elite schools, just go to gradedeflation.com. I think Harvard's avg. GPA is a 3.3ish, while UT's average GPA is a 2.6ish. State school professors really are not hesitant about assigning C's, D's, or even F's to students that don't put enough hard work in. The students with that same mindset to blow through college and not to put too much work into their schoolwork end up with B's at Harvard, when they should've gotten C's or D's.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
The students with that same mindset to blow through college and not to put too much work into their schoolwork end up with B's at Harvard, when they should've gotten C's or D's.

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</p>

<p>You're really looking at only one side of the picture, which is quite common among students who do not attend elite private institutions.</p>

<p>Just as it is difficult to get below a B, it is also difficult to get an A. Students who can do A work and still end up with an A- or B+.</p>

<p>Also, B's should be just as easy to get at state schools as elite private schools. That puts students from both schools at an equal playing field when applying to law schools. Coupled with the fact that students from state schools can get more As than students at elite private schools, a high GPA is not hard to come by at a state school.</p>

<p>Looking at average GPAs will not help at all. One cannot say that the 60,000 students at UT are as motivated as the 10,000 or so at Harvard. The lower average GPA could just as easily be based on the lack of a motivated student body, rather than grade deflation/inflation.</p>

6

<p>What really stinks, and I mean really, is that most students at elite private schools are stuck in the B-B+ range, which is not good enough for a top 6 law school, and probably not for a top 14. This average GPA means that students at elite private schools will have to try extra hard of they even want to have a chance at a school like Harvard Law School.</p>

<p>I'm hovering around a 3.8 at my school, and though I do wish it were higher, I can tell you that I worked extremely hard for my GPA, given the rigor of my major and the fact that I'm somewhere in the top 15% of my class.</p>

7

<p>I'm wondering if state school students are underrepresented at top law schools partly because many private colleges offer the benefit of grade inflation whereas state uni's don't. In fact, there are known "weed-out" classes at most state unis and they don't hesitate to use them. I think it might actually be harder to get a great gpa from a big impersonal state school.</p>

<p>Another liklihood is that top law schools prefer their own undergrads, a fact that the numbers seem to bear out.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
And to elaborate on nspeds' comment, to trace the rampant grade INFLATION at elite schools, just go to gradedeflation.com. I think Harvard's avg. GPA is a 3.3ish, while UT's average GPA is a 2.6ish. State school professors really are not hesitant about assigning C's, D's, or even F's to students that don't put enough hard work in. The students with that same mindset to blow through college and not to put too much work into their schoolwork end up with B's at Harvard, when they should've gotten C's or D's.

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</p>

<p>The reason for this, in my opinion, is the cultural or social factors in each school, including the attitudes that students bring with them. Students at Harvard have higher expectations, generally have a better idea of their limits, and are less risk-averse academically. Also, what their peers are doing has some effect. They have better advising, smaller classes, and have more students (%) operating under parental pressure. </p>

<p>Professors at state schools have been accustomed to give out those low grades because of the more extreme behavior of the students. The type of student that may sleep most of the day, party most nights, smoke marijuana, not attend class, take the midterm absolutely cold after 9 weeks, and simply have less of an idea or concern for their future is simply much more common at state schools. I don't know, elite college students may "party hard" but it is with a markedly different mindset. Another thing I have noticed is that people in state schools downgrade their major more often than at elite schools. </p>

<p>I think also that students have a tendency to make the grades they have been making and not want to go much lower. Since they started out with a significant difference in grades to start (look at the percentage of valedictorians or average gpa at elite schools compared to state schools), this fits what happens. Elite school students might drop from their typical A student entering status to B, but state of course is B-ish to lower, and then, in my view, it becomes a slippery slope in a good deal of cases. </p>

<p>That "same mindset to blow through college" is almost never the same. Dropout rates are another effect in favor of elite colleges. Students who want to "blow through" Columbia are very likely to do just that; more than a few state-school students never fulfill that modest expectation. </p>

<p>I am sure there are plenty other reasons and evidence but the main point is that when you are dealing with two different student bodies AND grading structures, comparing them by those shallow factors including gradeinflation.com is basically useless.</p>

9

<p>Don't forget, of course, the students' choices in the matter. It's not always reasonable to assume that kids will go to/apply to the best law school they could possibly get into, just as they don't necessarily go to/apply to the best undergraduate school they could.</p>

<p>A student who could go to Harvard undergrad but instead chooses UCLA (family, location, money) might be the sort of kid who could go to Harvard Law (hypothetically), but instead choose UCLA (family, location, money).</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
The type of student that may sleep most of the day, party most nights, smoke marijuana, not attend class, take the midterm absolutely cold after 9 weeks, and simply have less of an idea or concern for their future is simply much more common at state schools.

[/quote]

This was not my experience 30 years ago, nor is it my experience today. Anybody who behaved as you describe would flunk out in a semester or two. With your assumptions, no wonder so many on this board think that going to a state university is practically a fate worse than death.</p>

11

<p>I certainly know many such students, both at public and private universities, who are not flunking out. In my personal estimation, these sorts of students do seem more common at my local state school than they did at Duke.</p>

<p>(Actually, they seem more common at my local schools, public/private, selective/not-so-much.)</p>

12

<p>I have no doubt that there are more deadbeat students at a big state u than at a little private college. But a big university is a bigger slice of life in general. State U's may have 5 times the undergraduate enrollment of Duke. I think you will find more of all types of students there.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
I think you will find more of all types of students there.

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</p>

<p>...but how does this figure in the overall point of the thread in general?</p>

14

<p>"find more of all types of students"
post #8 and #11 say "common," which is meant to imply percentage.</p>

15

<p>about flunking out, i mentioned that as well as another small piece of evidence to distinguish student behavior and possible social factors. my opinion is, though, that for many students it becomes even more difficult at state schools, whether they realize it or not, than it would have been at a "harder" private school. i have seen quite a few people from my competitive high school do worse in college at state schools that are objectively easier than our high school. why? the idea is not very different from playing a sport better when you are playing with people better than you.</p>

16

<p>"i have seen quite a few people from my competitive high school do worse in college at state schools that are objectively easier than our high school. why? the idea is not very different from playing a sport better when you are playing with people better than you."</p>

<p>so you're saying that since the kids around them are less motivated at the state school they do poorer? </p>

<p>let's assume a kid is determined to get straight A's in all his college courses, shouldn't it be easier at the state university than the private university, long as he doesn't let his motivation waver?</p>

17

<p>i tried to simplify it because there are many more factors in going to school than playing the sport. not only are they less motivated but the school encourages motivation less over time by its larger size, less advising, more distance between students and professors, and so on. </p>

<p>yeah i think it should be easier, but it depends how you measure that. on the one hand you have before the fact objective considerations, and on the other you have the results of what happens generally which has led me to think about other factors. if you look at gradeinflation.com, i think montana state has an average gpa of 2.8 and uchicage has one about 3.2. montana state has less bright, less hardworking students but much easier classes, but imo why they do worse is more cultural than anything else. of course culture does not talk about possibilities. it is humanly possible to ignore it, but not probable for the type of students the state schools attract in my opinion. i'm not trying to advise anyone, just explaining the original representation in law schools.</p>

18

<p>From a faculty member here at the U. of Chicago: "There is a LOT of C-to-B grade inflation here, and quite a bit of A-to-B grade deflation here."</p>