<p>Which engineering programs have good academic support for students and have good rates of college completion?</p>
<p>And which schools are known for failing students out?</p>
<p>With all of the focus on getting in, it is easy to lose sight of the ultimate goal of finishing and getting out.</p>
<p>Every engineering school in the country, except for one, loses students.</p>
<p>Given that, you can go to the one school that gains students over the course of four years, or you can find a school that makes it easy to transfer into liberal arts. Not to be completely cynical.... :p</p>
<p>Do remember that some schools are tougher than others becuase they have better students. Hypothetically, if 10% of MIT students fail out and 25% of Podunk students fail out, don't conclude that you're more likely to finish at MIT. Some really, really bright kids are not making it at the best schools.</p>
<p>Conversely, some of the better schools understand this and have the attitude that if you can get in, you can do the work; they don't see the need to weed kids out.</p>
<p>Do you think "weeding out" occurs much at state schools? Advisors and older students have said this is the case. Why do they do this?</p>
<p>I attended a Canadian school that received government money on a per capita basis. There was a financial incentive to accept marginal students, keep them for half a year and then let them fail out.</p>
<p>My question wasn't whether everybody would finish. My question was what engineering colleges/ universities are known for building in support to help students be successful?</p>
<p>Why do engineering schools weed some people out? Would you want to fly on an airplane designed by somebody who graduated because the school didn't want to be mean? Engineering is a licensed profession, and e-schools have to pass accreditation standards. I think the answer is simple: either you know how to work differential equations, or you don't.</p>
<p>I think it might be better to have stiffer standards of admission. It doesn't seem right to me to take tuition from students who probably can't cut it.</p>
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[quote]
Why do engineering schools weed some people out? Would you want to fly on an airplane designed by somebody who graduated because the school didn't want to be mean? Engineering is a licensed profession, and e-schools have to pass accreditation standards. I think the answer is simple: either you know how to work differential equations, or you don't.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's far far too simplistic of an analysis. The fact is, many engineering programs, particularly the top ranked ones, go far far beyond what is necessary to maintain minimum accreditation standards. Berkeley, for example, is a highly prestigious engineering school that is also well known for highly aggressive weeding. Many if not most of the engineering students who do get weeded out of Berkeley are perfectly capable of being engineers. But they get weeded out anyway. </p>
<p>For example, I know quite a former Berkeley engineering students who got weeded out and had to transfer to another (less prestigious but still accredited) school like a CalState, whereupon they picked up an engineering degree there. But how is that possible? If Berkeley weeded out only people who were not fulfilling the minimum engineering requirements, then how is it that these people could then pick up engineering degrees from a CalState? After all, it's the same person, right? If they got weeded out of Berkeley because they couldn't fulfill minimum accreditation requirements, then they shouldn't be able to get an engineering degree from any accredited school, right? </p>
<p>The truth is, these people were perfectly capable of becoming engineers. The CalStates obviously thought so. That's why they conferred engineering degrees upon them. And these people might then take their CalState engineering degrees and design airplanes with them. They just weren't good enough to be BERKELEY engineers. That's a big difference. What that means is that Berkeley isn't really trying to enforce minimum accreditation standards. Rather, it means that Berkeley is trying to enforce its own reputational standard. It's not that those people aren't good enough to be engineers. It's just that these people are deemed to be not good enough to have engineering degrees from Berkeley. </p>
<p>I don't mean to single out Berkeley. I've heard of people who got weeded out of MIT who ended up doing just fine in the engineering programs at UMass. I've heard of people getting weeded out of Michigan or Illinois who do just fine at a low-ranked state school. </p>
<p>I'll put it to you another way. Law and medicine are also licensed professions. Yet practically no medical schools ever weed out their students, and only a few low-ranked law schools weed out theirs. The top law school in the country is Yale Law. Yale Law does no weeding - heck, Yale Law doesn't even bother to maintain class rank, refuses to provide transcripts to prospective employers, and otherwise tries to deliberately shield all grading information from outside parties. The top ranked medical school is Harvard Medical School, and HMS also does not weed its students. So of all the licensed professions, why does engineering engage in weeding, and not the others.</p>
<p>Some cognizant observers will say that YLS and HMS actually do engage in extensive "weeding" in the sense that it is extremely difficult to get into those schools. So their weeding is all in the admissions process. That's exactly right. But that just begs the question of why don't the engineering schools do that? Why don't the engineering schools simply not admit those students who aren't going to make it anyway? </p>
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Do you think "weeding out" occurs much at state schools? Advisors and older students have said this is the case. Why do they do this?
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</p>
<p>Yes weeding occurs at state schools and probably far more so than at private schools. State schools tend to have far less student support per capita than do the private schools and also have strange and inflexible rules about what happens if you can't cut it in engineering. For example, if you go to MIT and get weeded out of engineering, you are free to switch one of the easier majors. However, at Berkeley (for example), it's not so easy. You basically need to have at least a 3.0 to switch over to another major. And it's extremely easy to have less than a 3.0 when you are subjected to the engineering weeder crucible. </p>
<p>As for why do state schools do this, my only answer is that it comes down to politics. Undergrad programs at state schools are under tremendous political pressure to provide "wider access", which generally translates into lower admissions standards. However, the lower the admissions standards, the harsher the weeding has to be for the engineering program to maintain its prestige. That's the part that the politicians and voters don't see (or don't WANT to see). Basically, the push from the public has been to make it easier to get into college, but nothing has been done to make it easier to get "out" of college (through graduation). Hence, we have the worst of both worlds - some students who should never have been admitted are admitted and then waste time and money only to flunk out. </p>
<p>The most direct way to solve this problem would be to simply not admit people who aren't going to graduate anyway. Sadly, this is political impossible. I can just see what would happen at any public school that tried to do this - there would be massive student protests and you'd have all these hysterical students and parents decrying the coldness of the administration in "denying educational access". It's interesting how nobody ever seems to protest against the policy of admitting students who aren't going to make it anyway, wasting both their time and the school's time. </p>
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My question was what engineering colleges/ universities are known for building in support to help students be successful?
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</p>
<p>One school immediately comes to mind - Stanford. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Stanford helps its engineering students make it. Stanford doesn't have to. Rather, Stanford just makes it easy for its students to make it. Getting high grades at Stanford is difficult. But doing enough to simply pass is not difficult. Out of all the top engineering schools out there, Stanford is probably the least likely to flunk you out.</p>
<p>Thank you Sakky.</p>
<p>I can see that I asked 2 questions that aren't the same. The question that has been addressed is, what schools have a reputation for weeding students out. </p>
<p>My real question,that hasn't been answered, was the second-- that is:
Which engineering schools have good academic support?
Especially in the areas of time management, and writing.</p>
<p>I'd say that University of Arkansas - Fort Smith does a pretty good job of student support. All of the engineering professors have cell phones so students can contact us with questions. We also all have at least 15 office hours each week, at different times, so we are available a lot for students.</p>
<p>Overall, I'd say that schools that focus on teaching students tend do a better job with student support - schools like Rose-Hulman, Harvey Mudd, etc.</p>
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Do you think "weeding out" occurs much at state schools? Advisors and older students have said this is the case. Why do they do this?
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my second CS course was kinda like a weed out couse at my local state school.
the passing rate of this class was very very low. we had people taking that class for the 4rth time. more then 50% of the people Id say left CS because of this class.</p>