<p>This is a spinoff from another thread by Carolyn. Feel will be an important factor for my daughter too, but we won't be able to visit all that many campuses because we live overseas. How many of you or your children found the actual feel of a campus you visited was significantly different from what careful research--guides and CC--had led you to expect?</p>
<p>From research, we came up with five schools that were possibilities. We were only able to visit 3 of those 5 (although we did visit lots of other schools before it was narrowed down). The first got a ho-hum from my son (and Mom and Pop as well), At the second, we all three loved the feel of the campus. Of course part of our good feeling was that during the dept meeting, the dept chairperson went into Recruit-Mode and really made my S feel wanted. The third was our state school, which was a definite safety. After my son finished the app for the school we all liked so much, he never did one for what had been his previous top choice: USC (which we did not visit). So all in all, he only applied to 2 schools.</p>
<p>So who knows, USC might have been a much better match for him, but we won't know. He likes where he's going, they want him, he gets good money for going there, and felt at home.</p>
<p>I also think that the application process for USC was too painful for him to go through when he was pretty sure he wasn't going to go there anyway. But if we had visited, that might have been a totally different story.</p>
<p>So, moral of the tale: visits (and conversely, "non-visits") can make a huge difference.</p>
<p>My d had a large list. At several schools that we visited, she would not get out of the car. Didn't like something about it.</p>
<p>She did apply to a couple of safety schools that we did not visit, but knew kids who had gone their in the past, researched the schools etc. She was planning on visiting them if/when she was accepted.</p>
<p>It really depends on your child. This was my first going thru this. We did drag the little sister on visits.</p>
<p>"she would not get out of the car."</p>
<p>Ok, this is about the fourth time I have heard that from various parents. My own son refused to leave a hotel room to go on the tour of one school...after we had driven for hours to get there. They make up their minds and that's that!</p>
<p>We also live overseas and due to both finances and time we and our son had to make all of our visits in one three week period in the summer without the possibility of a return and re-evaluate. Our rule was no visit, no apply. Thus by necessity, our sons list was compacted pre-visit. We (and please, when I say we I mean son, husband and I we talked a lot about this) decided to first limit the search geographically to the Northeast plus two eastern Midwest schools one a promising safety, one my alma mater which was never really a realistic contender. We also limited the number of super reaches and only visited two ivies, although we could have made a case for three more. The visit list was heavy on safeties. We did extensive research, bought all the books, talked to everyone we knew with kids in college, consulted the internet (unfortunately not this board), and faithfully followed up on the counselors advice (which was inconsistent at best).</p>
<p>We visited 14 schools. The three that were on top pre-visit ended up dropping off the list, mostly due to that elusive feel. They just werent places that son wanted to spend four years. Two that werent even on the list got added at the last minute because of disappointment in others. One ended up being the school that son attends. (and one that we didnt get to still noodges me as the one that got away).</p>
<p>Im just going to paste what I wrote before on this subject as I think it illustrates the point, which is VISIT! What you read, what other people say, the stereotypes, the hype are not valid predictors. Feel is the most important element. It is admittedly intangible, but at the same time undeniable. It is a reaction to the physical surroundings, the way the kids look, the way you are treated by the admissions group, the atmosphere in the dining halls, seeing what kids do when theyre not in class. In my sons case it worked! He is so perfect for his school and it is so perfect for him, that I wouldnt change anything. Is this due to erudite judgment or dumb luck, who knows?</p>
<p>This is the in depth analysis of my sons college trail: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=290128#post290128%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=290128#post290128</a></p>
<p>Visits were invaluable for my daughter. She went to look at 4 colleges on the west coast that had seemed a good fit. By visiting classes, she could tell that the student body wasn't as interested in their academics as she was. At one place, it was the fact that there was so much smoking that turned her off. None of these things were apparent from reading the reviews. The school she attends is great - but from reading the princeton review book, you would never want to go there. (They have a couple of very negative comments in one of the sections.) She almost didn't apply because of those comments (I forced her to anyway), and now she is very happy where she is....</p>
<p>Generally we have found that the guidebooks are accurate up to a point but that the feel of a school and how one's children react to it can be very subjective. In some cases the feel has to do with the overall appearance of the school, the surface demeanor of the students you happen to see on the tour, what the other applicants seem like, what a class you sit on is like, or even the weather. What seems to be feel can also have a lot to do with how a specific tour guide or admission officer presents the school. Both my children had very mainstream, downt to earth tour guides on visits to Wesleyan several years apart, for example, and had the visit been based just on that experience they would have had a very different impression than the highly politicized one painted in many books. (In one case, the admissions counselor was equally down to earth, in the other, the admissions representative running an information session portrayed a far less welcoming place and the positive impression left by the tour was essentially negated.)</p>
<p>I should also add that I think it is okay to apply to a school that you are unabel to visit that seems like a good fit; sometimes time and finances jsut dont' work. But it is vital to visit before making a decision to attend. Accepted student days, usually held in mid-April for RD acceptees, show a school at its best, but even keepoing that in mind they are a very useful tool.</p>
<p>My son is interested in engineering. We did some research and consulted some professor friends at Rose-Hulman for advice. The list we came up with was:</p>
<p>Purdue - large, in-state
U of IL UC - large
Vanderbilt - mid-size
Washington U StL - mid-size
Northwestern - mid-size
VA Tech - large
Bradley University - small/mid-size
St. Ambrose - small
Knox - small, no engineering but a 3/2 program</p>
<p>The only two we didn't visit were VA Tech and UIUC. He's been on the UIUC campus </p>
<p>His favorite for 'feel' and living arrangements was Knox by a long shot. It just didn't have what he wanted. If they did, it would be on the final list. </p>
<p>St. Ambrose had the best dorms out of all of the schools, nice campus too. It was too small for his taste for both total enrollment and major. He was offered $10k/yr merit to make it more attractive. It's not on his short list though.</p>
<p>Vanderbilt was a great trip. The campus was tied with WUStL for nicest grounds. It also didn't have the program he wanted. They had something similar, but no ABET accreditation. </p>
<p>WUStL was the overall favorite but, alas, not the program he decided on.</p>
<p>Northwestern was very nice and it's still in the running. He doesn't seem to have strong feelings either way.</p>
<p>Purdue and UIUC are both larger than he wants. His tour and visit at Purdue left him with the feeling that it was too impersonal. He'd go to either if the financing was right, but I think it's because of the rep rather than because he likes either one more than the rest.</p>
<p>Which brings us to Bradley. It didn't have the best campus. It isn't the highest ranked, although it is well respected in his major. The attenton he received ranked right up with WUStL, Knox and St. Ambrose. The department chair made a point to meet with him after the tour and that impressed him. They offered him $8.5k/yr merit right off the bat as well.. He hasn't accepted but he says he knows that should he decide to attend he'll be perfectly happy. He says it just 'feels' like he'll belong.</p>
<p>S has an excellent academic record and outstanding ECs. He'd be a competitive applicant for about any school in the country, yet he is leaning toward a university that doesn't have the national rep or the big name. After all o fthe research we've done and all of the roadtrips we've made, I really can't argue with his logic.</p>
<p>Feel was intensely important for my D and most of the time TheMom and I had similar scorecards as she did as we tried to project her into the various scenes. Nothing on paper...nor do I think even videos...substitutes for actually being there, interacting with other students and prospects, etc.</p>
<p>Columbia was her #1 on paper...she wound up not applying, though she did apply to Barnard, right across the street. She didn't like NYU. I still think her comment about Harvard was funny, "I liked it better than I thought I would." (The adcom did not reciprocate.) She was smitten by Yale. (See Harvard.) She was okay with but not smitten by Stanford. (Lousy adcoms.) </p>
<p>When it came down to the final decision, Wellesley was like a girl (from my pov) that there's nothing wrong with but has no particular chemistry, whereas Smith just clickclickclicked.</p>
<p>===</p>
<p>Digi: your son was saved from the Dark Side.</p>
<p>Agree that feel makes or breaks it.....but guidebooks,word of mouth,etc. readily narrow the list. Son spent 8 seconds at Williams and off the list...same with Wash U...nothing specific, just a vibe. Would caution not to visit if possible when out of session - will seem dead.
How to discount bad weather, bad tour guide? My wife was turned off by a tour guide at Brown that didn't know how to ride a bike....but I liked her...silly stuff of no consequence but somehow it counts. Destiny?</p>
<p>At one point or another, I've visited all three of the schools to which I applied. I believe that the visits had a huge impact on my overall views of each school because they gave me the chance to make my own conclusions about each school as well as think about whether or not I could see myself in each school's atmosphere instead of always having to rely on someone else's conclusions about them (which would be biased 99.9% of the time). I also think that many factors played a part in the making of my conclusions that I would not have considered otherwise. Some of these factors were size, how academically oriented the student body seemed to be as well as how the students present during the visit acted during the visit (I personally need and want to be a part of a more challenging atmosphere where everybody else wants to learn just as much as I do), the campus' setup, and even how I was treated by the faculty and the admissions staff while I was there. Some of my visits were certainly better than others (the best, for me, being at Northwestern), but some were a very huge turn off in my eyes in trying to impress me. The turnoff was, for me, made mostly by how current students acted during the presentation as well as how well the presentation was set up for the prospective students. One really didn't seem to have taken hardly any effort to run at all (If they really wanted me, they would have taken the time to fully think out how they wanted the presentation to run and represent their school). Sometimes the campus visit can be the difference between saying yes to a school and saying no to it.</p>
<p>Pyewacket, may I make a distinction? We found the guidebooks to be fairly accurate in the assessment of feel, BUT, what the guidebooks can't tell you is how your child may react to a school. Two schools may be very similar in feel, but your child may have wildly different reactions to them, sometimes for very good reasons, sometimes for reasons that are obvious, but not necessarily good ones, sometimes for no apparent reason other than the tour guide giggles, or it is raining, or the one class they sat through was boring, or they just don't feel well that day.</p>
<p>I think you have to do the best you can, especially with the practical consideration of being overseas, but if there is any possible way, visit after acceptances.</p>
<p>Visits are so interesting - daughter's #1 college before the visit is now off the list completely, and one that was not on the list at all is now her #1 choice. Out of the 12 we have visited so far, 3 are completely off the list. Looks like we'll only be doing one more college visit, because she's pretty much decided on her list. Interesting note: this is all based on research/visits done during and just after sophomore year. So while she may look at the flood of college mail still to come, it will probably not make much of a difference. Early advertising pays!</p>
<p>Feel (from visits) made a huge difference for us, and turned the list virtually upside down, with the top or near top of the list sinking, and the near-bottom ending up on top. Would she have been fine, or found her niche at the other schools? Oh, probably. But it feels great to fall in love with a school, and then to find yourself there, with the reasons confirmed. And some schools, like my alma mater, clearly surprised us (both parents and d.) - it would be great, but for a different type of kid.</p>
<p>Everywhere (except Yale) faculty and other folks went way out of their way to meet with her and to show her around. She especially appreciated honesty (like the head of undergraduate music studies at H. who told her she couldn't even meet, no less study with, the prof. she wanted to learn from, and that he only taught graduate students, in alternate years.) I felt like she had a pretty good picture of life (and academics) at each place before she made her choice.</p>
<p>I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here. In my opinion, visits are important, but ultimately limited in the quality of the information they provide. The element of serendipity is HUGE in a brief college visit. So much is linked to chance and happenstance. For examle -- What is going on in the students life as he's taking time away to visit? How's the weather and campus atmosphere at the time of visit (beginning of semester, middle, end, before or after exams, etc.)? If the student is doing an overnight, did the student "click" with the hosts? Were the planned or unplanned activities turn-ons or turn-offs for that particular student's interests?</p>
<p>How many times have we all heard family or friends discuss a child at college who hated it at first, only to love it by the end of Freshman year and throughout their time at the school? Or, what about all of the kids who adored their "dream school," loved it during their "honeymoon" period, only to find out that their "dream" had turned into a nightmare or some kind of surrealist Twilight Zone episode -- a school far different from the school they "thought" they were attending? AND THESE CHANGED IMPRESSIONS, often 180's, came from full-time students whose initial impressions were formed from a 24/7 experience with the college over many months. I agree 100% that first impressions count.</p>
<p>I agree that "feel" is real and any sensible person must listen to that inner voice as it expresses its clear and unequivocal ideas about feel. But, I've always been skeptical of putting too much stock in a "feel" determination, where that determination is the result of a single one or two day visits, or even a group of one or two day visits, no matter how comprehensive and thorough these visits are (overnights, classes, professors, etc.). You simply see so little in visits ... there is so much serendipity ... and it has so little statistical significance vis a vis what the entire experience will be like. And yet, feel, even initial feel is critical. I definitely advocate going on visits. I simply think that the accuracy of this immediate "feel" is somewhat suspect.</p>
<p>One more analogy: Everyone always likes to talk about love at first sight. It's so romantic to talk/hear about "I saw him/her and knew instantly he/she was the one." And sometimes that happens. Life is good. But many times people end up falling in love and marrying people who did NOT set-off these "he/she is the one" bells. Similarly, many stories of love at first sight end with two people wondering why they didn't take the time to get to know each other before they committed.</p>
<p>Do the visit. Get those sensory impressions. But it's one piece (perhaps the most important piece), but simply one piece of a complicated puzzle.</p>
<p>This is a good topic. </p>
<p>I found the guidebooks (Fiske and Princeton Review) to be really accurate regarding academic strengths, campus atmosphere etc. </p>
<p>I'm suspect of "feel" based on a single short visit, but kids are pretty good about sorting out and sensing what their fellow students might be like at any given place. One or two personal contacts (tour guides, etc.) can really skew the feel though.</p>
<p>That's why I think it is important to have a solidly researched list before you go touring. If all the schools look pretty good on paper, you can be pretty comfortable with a final decision based on feel.</p>
<p>Shhh. The romantics are asleep. The cynics (realists?) come out at 11:05 - 11:12 p.m. I couldn't agree more Reidm.</p>
<p>Well, I have to weigh in for the romantics (and it's only noon here). My relationship developed from love at first sight and my son chose his college the same way. Husband & I have had 35 years of success and son only 1-1/2, but so far, so good. </p>
<p>On the realistic side, I agree fully that fit only works if the foundation is there and that it's critical to perform your due dilligence before you visit.</p>
<p>One point that I'm undecided on is whether parents (or counselors) should try to influence kids who have made up their minds in either extreme -- won't get out the car or love at first sight. I feel that there are enough schools out there that we shouldn't try to reverse first impressions, but I also accept that there may be superficial factors involved. I also agree that a second visit is ideal, but in our case, and possibly for the OP as well, it just wasn't doable.</p>
<p>I like your response Momrath. I was joking -- mostly -- about the whole romantic bit. In most aspects of my life, I definitely see the world through a sort of romantic kaleidoscope. I just think it's importance to keep a handle on the limitations of feel, especially for older teenagers under oft-times enormous pressure to make the most monumental decision of their young life. My own son LOVED his visit to the school he wound up attending -- had a great vibe. I have every expectation that his gut "feel" about the school was accurate and he'll enjoy his entire undergraduate career at the school. On the other hand, the due-diligence for that school had already been accomplished and it was one of 7 visits, finalists if you will, from a list that originally was in the 30's.</p>
<p>As far as attempting to influence kids who feel either extreme -- immediate love or hate -- I agree there are so many possible fits, so many good schools that work for any particular good, why fight this battle (with the possible exception of a school that might be on a list for financial "safety" reasons).</p>
<p>Reid, I agree with what I call the "fluke" factor. But I see adults fall victim to same in various arenas, so I can't really fault the students. D did what I thought was an interesting bit of engineering, sizing up the other prospects during different tours and info sessions, talking to <em>them</em>, seeing what they were like and gathering their impressions of the school as well. NYU was memorable because there wasn't a single person in the group she felt remotely simpatico with. Fluke? Possibly. Out of X thousand students, there had to be <em>some</em> soulmates there...but as on overall underwhelming indicator, it probably had some validity.</p>