Rest in Peace: College Closings

Parents Forum
581

The parents of most of the parents here on CC attended high school between the 1950s and the 1970s.

Also, if you had read through my post, you would have seen that I clearly demonstrated that the requirements for high school in the 1980s and 1990s were also the same or less than they are today:

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d96/d96t152.asp (1980, 1993)

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/statereform/tab5_7.asp (2018)

Last I checked, the 1980s and 1990s are not “75 or 100 years ago”.

I provide data from 70, 37, and 40 years ago, and you dismiss it as being from “75 or 100 years ago”.

Here is data from 19 years ago (2001):

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt153.asp

All of this data still demonstrates increases in the number of required core courses, while non-core courses are nor being added, and, if anything, they are being dropped.

In 2001, only 4 states required 4 hours of math, and 17 states only required 2 hours.
In 2018, 17 states require 4 hours of math, and only 3 require 2 hours.

In 2001, 37 states required 4 hours of English, 6 required 3, and two required more than 4
In 2018 only a single state required fewer than 4 hours in English (and two required more)

In 2001 only 1 state required 4 hours of science, 21 required 3, 21 required 2, and one required a single hour of science
In 2018 4 states required 4 hours of science, 34 required 3, and 10 required 2 hours. None require fewer.

On the other hand,

In 2001, 7 states required more than 1 hour of art (3, 2, or 1.5), 16 required 1 hour, and 4 required 1/2 hour
In 2018, only 1 school required more than 1 hour of art (1.5), 20 required 1 hour, and two required 1/2 hour.

Here you are, incontrovertible proof that the core course requirements have been increasing consistently for decades.

So enough of those false claims of “our parents”, or “we” having had more math or science or English than “kids today”.

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582

MODERATOR’S NOTE: OK, please move on. It’s turning into a debate.

583

Law grade in Minneapolis-St. Paul are doing quite well in the job market, except perhaps the bottm of the class at Hamiline-Mitchell and St. Thomas. Even the bottom of the class at the University of Minnesota Law School is doing quite well, getiing full-time jobs at attractive salaries.

584

I believe Marygrive has merged with the University of Detroit, its longtime sister school. Historically U of D was all men and Marygrove all women, but U of D has been coed for many years now. This was one of the principal reasons for Marygrove’s declining enrollment and its consequent financial troubles… Why attend a second-rate Catholic women’s college when you can attend a more highly regarded Catholic coed school a few miles away?

585

Thomas Cooley Law School in Michigan, a private school, recently
merged with Western Michigan University, a public university. This continues a trend. A few years ago the private Detroit College of Law merged with Michigan State. These are marriages of convenience. The public universities hope to gain prestige and perhaps some cash by operating law schools, while struggling private law schools hope to stabilize their finances by coming under the wing of larger universities.

Cooley had a reputation as one of the worst law schools in the country. Hopefully its academic standards will improve now that it’s part of Western Michigan which doesn’t have the highest academic standards itself, but no self-respecting university would tolerate a school with as shabby an academic reputation as Cooley. Cooley’s alumni include Trump’s former personal lawyer and bagman Michael Cohen, one of the worst lawyers in America. For years Cooley accepted applicants who couldn’t get admitted to better law schools but were determined to become lawyers anyway. As a consequence its bar passage rate has been abysmal and it’s churned out a steady stream of bad lawyers, the bottom-dwellers of the profession.

586

University of Detroit merged with Mercy College in 1990. Marygrove essentially dissolved.

587

Marygrove had huge enrollment losses leading up to its closure. Once upon a time, they had a very highly regarded teaching program. In recent years, students chose to attend other area schools. They thought that they could make it as a graduate-only school, with a very narrow curriculum, but that didn’t work. (I could have told them that … having worked at a graduate-only school with a very narrow curriculum. You have to have basic services to run any college, and that costs money.). The campus now hosts some wonderful community-based undertakings.

588

@Camasite , As you say you are a 5th generation person from Oregon, not sure your perception of Pennsylvania is totally accurate. There are plenty of major highways/roads in Pennsylvania that go around or through mountains. And different terrain , including many flatter areas, depending on what area of Pennsylvania is involved. People in Pennsylvania know how to get around pretty well!

589

And the roads suck…and that’s with the highest gasoline tax in the country I believe.

No beltways around cities. Around Pittsburgh there were roads that just ended. The plan was for toll roads. Some took 50+ years to be built. Some pretty scenery and we can get around but one of the common phrases around here is “there’s no easy way to get there from here”. Old cranky rant over. Lol.

590

My mother’s family is all from PA going back generations. They live in Mifflin Co which is the next valley south of State College so I spent my summers in PA and go back frequently for family events. We did a tour of PSU with my daughter a few years ago. If you are driving from Philly to State College you get interstate highway to Harrisburg and then what? you start zig-zagging through the mountains via 22 and 322 and slowing down through the small towns. I learned to drive on those roads.

Point is that no one from any major metro area can commute to PSU. It has to be one of the most isolated flagship universities in the country. Washington State in Pullman is more isolated. But I can’t think of many others. So it makes sense that PA would have lots more regional schools. By contrast, here on the west coast, UW is in Seattle, UO is in Eugene but still within the major populated Willamette Valley. Berkeley is in the Bay Area and UCLA is obviously in LA. In Texas probably 5 million people live within an hour or so of UT-Austin.

591

The other major state related schools , Pitt and Temple , ARE in cities. Penn State has other regional campuses outside of State College that are more geared to commuters .

592

So to pull this back to the main topic, which Pennsylvania public colleges do y’all expect are most likely to close within the next few years? (I think by now it’s a given that there will be at least a tiny bit of consolidation, or at least reallocation.)

593

None but I’m hopeful.

That said here’s what I’m thinking.

I’m not an expert on Community Colleges in PA but I’d try to keep them strong. They serve a purpose. CCAC is $116/credit for Allegheny residents. I would treat them as feeders to 4 year schools. Keep it simple and stick to basic core requirements. I would also look at affiliations with trade schools. Try to fill a niche.

Pitt and Temple need to divest their smaller campuses. Too much duplication of effort. Pitt needs to consider going private. They have over $4B in the endowment.

I would tweak PASSHE schools. They might be able to close one or two campuses and cut some programs/sports. They fill the need between CC’s and state flagships in cost and college experience.

Penn State is the elephant in the room. 24 branch campuses. Way too many. 4 or 5 campuses have 2-4K kids. The rest have 750 kids or less.

Good luck with any of this. It’s too bad it took a pandemic and probably big losses in revenue to start this conversation.

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594

Presumably, you mean not including those in sparsely populated states, such as University of Idaho, University of Wyoming, or University of Alaska Fairbanks?

In terms of other more populated states with relatively isolated flagships, University of Illinois Urbana Champaign is far from the state’s largest concentration of population.

595

But then aren’t the PSU branches more like community colleges for transfer to PSU Main, but with costs to the student much higher than the actual community colleges?

596

I grew up in Pennsylvania but haven’t lived there for many years, but still visit regularly. Someone currently in Pennsylvania should be better able to answer that. But, I would think a kid who really wants to end up at University Park with a Penn State University Park degree , has a better chance if they start out at a PSU branch as opposed to a community college. It seems pretty automatic from a branch after two years given decent grades, but someone can correct me if that is not the case. I was accepted to Penn State University Park decades ago but did not attend. There were PSU branches then, but I didn’t know anyone going to one. There are community college articulation agreements but most of them seem to guarantee transfer to a PSU branch as opposed to the University Park campus. And, there are also more PSU branches than community college so some may have to do with local access.

597

Transfer stats for Penn State. Only 333 to Main Campus. Not a lot. I’m assuming that includes transfers from branch campuses but not positive. I’m assuming it can be tough to transfer into PSU because students at Main Campus aren’t even guaranteed admissions into the popular programs.

Transfer Information Number
Total Applications University-wide 9,258
Total Transfer Students University-wide 3,229
Total Transfer Students at University Park 333
Total Transfer Students at Commonwealth Campuses 1,447
Total Transfer Students at World Campus 1,449

598

I’m pretty sure that moving from a PSU branch campus to main campus junior year is not considered a transfer. Except for a very few majors, Penn State main campus only accepts junior year transfers, and it doesn’t accept any transfers to some majors (notably nursing, engineering, and Smeal). I think the 333 figure is mostly junior year transfers from other colleges/universities.

599

That is my understanding too from what I’ve read. Penn State has the 2 + 2 plan, so those kids don’t really seem to be counted as transfers to University Park. . They are just moving up after 2 years at a branch campus. https://admissions.psu.edu/pennstate/2plus2plan

600

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/04/university-arizona-acquires-ashford-university

I am not familiar with Ashford University but sold to U of Arizona for $1. So a buyout.