Retention Audition Program (cut-system?)

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

One of the schools we were interested in had some rather disconcerting opinions about it on this forum.
So I sent an email to the Dean of a musical theatre program inquiring about this information. His email did not have any disclaimer/not share clause, but I’m still going to leave the name of the school blank. Suffice it to say, it is a large State School. I’m only a lurker, but I’ve learned a lot from this forum. Thought others might benefit from info (almost) direct from a school that practices Retention Auditions.

"Dear ________,
I suppose there was a time when the retention program here was overly rigorous, particularly when we also offered a Master of Fine Arts Program and there was significant competition for roles. Much has changed here since 2006, not the leas of which is two thirds of the acting Musical Theatre Faculty and the discontinuation of our MFA so that full attention could be given to the undergraduate population.

We have both Acting and Musical theatre BFA’s and the programs are highly integrated. Our admitted classes tend to be relatively small due to the need to keep course sizes under 18 per section-required by our Accreditation. We do require students to audition for retention in the program at the end of the Freshman Year and at the end of the Sophomore year. If they are retained in the program, they are then guaranteed a main-stage role each semester until they graduate. They also are guaranteed a spot in our Senior Showcase.

It is true that some programs have abandoned retention auditions as the pressure to have and retain more students grows. However these same programs-University of Michigan (which I am intimately familiar with for example) also tells their students that they may never get onstage in a production during the 4 years they are in the program and they may not get into the senior showcase. Our students have a freshman performance ensemble which tours the city during the freshman year and during the sophomore year, they begin to find their way on stage in small roles, understudy roles etc. Because we are a member of the University Resident theatre Association, our students also have the opportunity to work with ____ Repertory Theatre and earn points towards membership in Actors Equity Association. Our students also act in student films here and leave not only with a showcase audition but with a reel of film work if they choose to pursue it. One of our faculty just completed performing in a limited run in New York, and we have one of the very best musical theatre voice teachers around.

We are very upfront about the expectations and retention auditions here. We have mid year reviews so that students are aware of areas they need to continue to develop if there are weaknesses. This sometimes shows up in grades and sometimes not. Some students simply do not have the drive or discipline to work professionally, and if they do not step up to the task, they are not retained. The suggestion that we work on a quota is simply hogwash, as is the notion that student can be bumped out by freshmen auditioning into the program.

We are characterized as heartless, and arbitrary by some on College Confidential and it gives me some heartburn for sure, but there is a very direct educational reason for our retention policies.

First, this is a highly competitive profession, and we feel that it is unfair to encourage students to continue with performance training if they do not show the potential to be successful. Many programs are happy to offer students the best 4 years of their entire performing career while they are students simply to keep their head counts up where administrations want them to be.

Secondly, our BFA Students work with each other for 4 years and it is easy for students to begin to pull each other down, if skill sets don’t develop at the same rate.

I realize that the level of uncertainty about retention is a deterrent for some, however, we also offer a very full and rich BA program that offers a wide range of performance opportunities, and for some, the BA is the preparation that they need to achieve success when they are a bit older and ready for a graduate level MFA program.

Thank you for your interest. I hope you will pursue an application. We are quite happy to provide you with any other information we can."

2

I have no idea what program this is - or what point the OP is trying to make, but this alleged dean’s arguments could be made at any number of programs. At S’s program students who do not show up for class, don’t do the necessary work on their craft are indeed “redirected”. Not an official “cut” system, or retention program, but then wouldn’t the same thing happen if you were a chemistry major who never completed your lab work, or a writing major who didn’t finish assignments? If an MT program prides itself in turning out graduates who are ready work in the business or enter MFA programs, doesn’t it make sense to have some kind of mechanism for redirecting students who choose not to do the work necessary to achieve at that level? If an aspiring MT student is nervous about being asked to leave a program before they even enter it, perhaps they need to reassess their commitment to the study of this craft.

3

I think a true cut program is one that cuts students after one year in the program (even when they are meeting all the requirements) to reach a desired class size. For example, they will admit 30 kids to the freshman class but cut 15 because they want a class size of 15 to graduate. Not sure that is what the above program is all about or not. I couldn’t tell.

4

Are cut programs the norm or the exception? is there a list of musical theater schools that cut regardless of reason (meeting or not meeting requirements)? Just realized we never asked this question for the schools at which D is auditioning.

5

Cut programs are the exception. I think just a couple of schools on the West Coast do this now.

6

The OP is one of those posts that makes me go “hmmmmmmmmm”

7

Interesting that there’s a class limit to be an accredited theater program. Never knew that!

8

it says “required by our Accreditation” - which I read as implying something to do with this school, not all schools.

9

One needs to differentiate between a cut program and programs that require a level of performance to remain. Cut programs as I understand it accept more students than they know they want to keep. So they know they will cut some from the outset.

That is very different than what is described in the letter in the OP. In my D’s program they go through juries every semester. They have dance juries, vocal juries, and they have juries on piano, sight reading, music theory (what I would call academic juries). If you do not pass a jury, then you are not allowed to audition for shows the following semester. And although I do not know this for sure, if you continually flunk performance juries I think they will advise you to consider another major.

I liken this to undergraduate students in other majors. I teach a physiology class for students that are pre-med. And on several occasions I have had the task of telling some students they do not have what it takes to make it into med school. Very difficult conversations, obviously. But necessary. Every college major deals with these type issues, not just music theater.

10

The dean on OP’s letter states that they ADMIT small classes to maintain “course sizes under 18 per section-required by our Accreditation. We do require students to audition for retention in the program at the end of the Freshman Year and at the end of the Sophomore year. If they are retained in the program, they are then guaranteed a main-stage role each semester until they graduate. They also are guaranteed a spot in our Senior Showcase.” This is not a “cut” system and it’s possible that the accreditation is for the school, not necessarily the Theater Association. And asking underperforming students to find another path makes sense, just as it does in the case of @jeffandann‌’s pre-med physiology students. Also, just like jeffandann’s D’s program, my S’s program also has dance/vocal/acting juries/boards/recitals/reviews/interviews - or whatever you want to call them - in freshman and sophomore years (a sophomore was “redirected” at the end of fall semester). This is a fact of life for theater/dance/music students, and they will be jumping through similar hoops for the rest of their performing careers. Doesn’t it make sense to get the “heads up” before you’ve paid for, and invested time in, a 4-year degree that is not a “good fit”?

The dean in OP’s letter also mentions that many schools are “pressured” to keep students (isn’t that true in almost ALL programs - MT or otherwise - these days?) Being “retained” and at the same time guaranteed roles in MainStage productions for junior and senior years - and senior showcase - might be considered a big plus when contrasted to schools that “keep” students but don’t guarantee any roles or showcase.

11

The only thing that peaked my interest here was the comment “sometimes in shows up in grades, sometime not.” “…they are not retained.” I remember reading about some school that @soozievt was writing about that dropped kids from their program even though they had excellent grades. And the kid ended up at CMU I think.
I guess I would be upset as a parent if my kid got good grades and still got released from his major.

12

I would ABSOLUTELY not support any such program. It’s pure madness to do so. At any program, if you don’t meet class requirements, yes, you can fail the class, get kicked out of the department. That’s a whole other story from a retention audition program. In such programs, you can get kicked out simply because the department sees better pickings from the new class or transfers.

It’s difficult enough to get into an audition MT program, especially one of note It’s difficult to get plum parts and the best opportunities once in many of those programs. Once out of the program and pounding the streets for paying performance gigs, it’s horrendously difficult and the odds are way against any given individual. So, the four years at college, IMO should be a safe haven that is earned from the audition/admissions results and maintaining the grades and reasonable requirements for staying in a course of study, so that a student considering going into this field can learn what a good program will cover, and that student has been exposed and been taught the tenets of what is needed to become a professional This is not the time to have to worry about a stinking audition just to stay into the program Why the heck would you cut someone who is doing the workload as required? Why waste the time and resources for such auditions when you have the kids in your program day in and out and they are auditioning for your productions? You need yet another hurdle for them? Makes no sense to me other than as a means to cut for no good reason to get others you want in there instead.

Give the kid the 4 years of some peace in pursuing and investigating the field There will be enough issues without adding another stinker in there that benefits only the profs in the dept. Boo to those additional cut systems in a field that already has so many obstacles, and is a gauntlet. Boo. Hiss. Hold my nose.

13

Just as we can never know what “it” factor program faculty are looking for when they admit MT students to their programs, we can never know all that is considered when they decide who is being successful, or not, as they are advancing through the program. It doesn’t make sense to dismiss students from a program “just because”. And grades really are not the whole picture. Haven’t you known people in your life who always showed up on time, did what they were told, got As and Bs in everything, but couldn’t take risks, push the envelope, work with the team, or go the extra mile? Or perhaps had a life situation that made it impossible for them to carry on? I guess there can be some programs out there who dismiss students for murky, nefarious, willy-nilly reasons, but my gut says that there are probably “other” signs of dysfunction in those programs as well. As always when considering programs, do your research, ask questions and listen to your gut.

14

It’s obvious to me what school this is. I’ll go out on a limb and due to the intro in the first post that this school had some disconcerting posts about it in the past, is a large state school, the mention of retention auditions, etc. tells me it is University of Arizona. Indeed, in the past, they have cut many students (including those with excellent grades in their training classes) and have replaced them with freshman and transfers who have auditioned into the program. Read threads in the U of Arizona MT forum listed at the top of the MT Forum. Perhaps there have been changes since those old threads (which program directors/faculty posted on).

pghmusician…yes, I did post that a student who posted on CC in the past, who had excellent grades, was cut from Arizona’s program and landed at CMU. He is highly successful right now in his career. Funny, but years after reading those posts here, I had the pleasure of meeting this young man and my daughter has performed with him in the past year. There was another young woman who posted here years ago who was also cut from Arizona, had great grades, and landed at BOCO. Clearly these two examples indicate that these kids had the goods to succeed.

This is not the same as evaluations/juries where one gets feedback or where someone who is clearly failing (missing classes, not doing the work) and is redirected, like in other majors. I have taught at five colleges and certainly understand the idea of students who are failing. That is not the same as a cut program (which may be calling itself “audition retentions” or any other name where kids must pass a certain hurdle to remain in the class.

I agree 100% cptofthehouse’s post #11. There is plenty of discussion on this topic if you read this particular school’s forum.

15

I haven’t kept track of what schools do this, but Cincinnati was one that my son liked (knew some folks there) that I nixed because of their cut system. Thank goodness too. Because my son barely got through college without another requirement in the gauntlet. Met a young woman who was cut from that program and is one of the few who is making a living wage performing. She has no idea why they cut her other than possibly she had gained weight and was having a rough spell, though getting the grades.

It’s nice to have them in school and as “safe” as they can be. There are plenty enough reasons for them to leave a program without throwing something out ones control into the picture.

16

Um, let me get this straight, a student can get good grades but still be booted from the program? Why would a student want to go to such a place?

I am with @cptofthehouse on this one.

17

Yeah, but at what point does it become arbitrary? If grades are not the deciding factor that determines whether you are meeting performance evaluations then what does? No one expects them to make willy-nilly decisions in retaining kids, but unwritten, undefined factors that can lead to letting kids go?

18

I agree with cpofthehouse, mom4bwayboy, and pghmusician. The time for the school to decide if the kid had potential was at the ORIGINAL audition when they decided to admit them into the school. Once the student is enrolled, it’s up to the school to train them to the best of their ability. As long as they are putting in the work and getting good grades, they absolutely should NOT have to worry about being cut loose. If it ultimately turns out they don’t have what it takes to make it after they graduate, then they’ll find that out when they graduate. It’s NOT up to the school to boot them.

If you read the Arizona folder, you see that a) some students were cut loose with NO warning, after getting As in all classes and reassurance from their teachers, and b) some students who were cut loose by Arizona then auditioned for super-competitive schools like CMU and were ACCEPTED as transfer students. So clearly Arizona is not the all-knowing oracle of who will be successful - no one can possibly know that.

Now, having said that, IF the school feels that the student won’t be successful professionally, I see nothing wrong with TALKING to the student frankly about it and explaining in what way the student falls short (in the school’s opinion), and perhaps SUGGESTING a switch to the BA program or to another major. That type of “counseling” is acceptable to me. But if the kid is doing the work and getting good grades and wants to stay, then the school should be committed to keeping that student and WORKING with them on the supposed “shortfalls”.

If the school feels that it “made a mistake” in admitting someone who may not be competitive post-graduation, then it’s the SCHOOL’S mistake, and they need to just suck it up and do the best they can with what they were given.

JMO, obviously.

19

There is what I consider a big difference between what I teach (physiology) and what my D undergoes in MT. For me have objective data I can go by. I have test scores that tell me if a student can comprehend the information he or she needs in order to make medical school. Some can’t and those students we advise to pursue other career objectives. In the performing arts the assessment (other than courses like music theory) are more subjectively based. Although I know at least for my D, all the voice faculty and all the dance faculty are there for juries. And if they reach a concensus that a student is not cutting it, at least there are multiple opinions vs. say a single director as with a show audition.

When my D auditioned she avoided one program that had a reputation of cutting kids after feshman year (they used the euphemistic term redicrected). We would nto have supported her applying anywhere with such a system. Luckily it sounds as if that is rare now. Good thing, this is hard enough without that sort of approach.

20

I’m curious - how is this a bad thing?

In sports, it is very common to cut players who do not have enough drive or determination, or frankly just don’t fit into the coach’s vision for his team.

Is it better to sit on the bench game in game out or be cut and move on?

Why should musical theater be different? Is it better to get bit parts every year or be cut completely so you can move on?

Coaches all the time have absolutely no problem blaming the player for any perceived shortcomings and not themselves for picking the player. When it comes down to it, if in either case (sports or musical theater or any performance type) you are talking a few hours at best to figure out if someone is “the right fit”, and then you are committing. Like marrying someone after going on a two-hour date.

Both parties should be able to change their mind, as long as there is some kind of warning and not “sorry you’re out” when it happens. Enough warning so the student can transfer for the next year seems fair to me.