Rethinking the Costs of Attending an Elite College (Wall Street Journal)

Parent Cafe
381

<p>

</p>

<p>Whereas right now the average response to a CEO, banker, or anyone connected with Wall Street would to call up a mob with pitchforks a-ready. Lawyers get blamed for all of society’s problems on a regular basis (much more than they deserve to be, IMO.) Doctors are still fairly well-respected, as are astronauts and firefighters.</p>

<p>Maybe in five years a few major bridges will collapse and engineers will gain society’s ire. The only professions that actually “yield awe” are “celebrity” ones like movie actors, being an unusually successful writer (ala J.K.Rowling), or being in a successful band.</p>

<p>Choosing a profession for the perceived societal adoration is stupid.</p>

382

<p>

</p>

<p>Granted choosing a profession for prestige would be stupid, using prestige as a barometer for a top profession is not because often times what people consider to be top anything is inextricably linked to prestige.</p>

383

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m sorry if it seemed I was condescending to you. I’m really just trying to be understanding of the fact that, through some combination of nature and nurture, you are challenged in this area. This is no reason to condescend to someone, which I agree is childish and rude. On the contrary, such people deserve our kindness. Society has to take care of all of its members, not just the engineers and other fortunates.</p>

384

<p>^^^^^EWWWWWWWW!!!</p>

<p>Just as elitist. Engineers are smarter by some measures, not by others. Many I have known had no idea of how to conduct human relationships.</p>

<p>I scored hirer on SAT’s and GRE’s than my friends who became engineers.</p>

<p>Why make such blanket statements.</p>

<p>Two of my favorite authors, Pynchon and Richard Powers, quit science/engineering because they found them too restrictive. They believe the smartest people are novelists.</p>

<p>Some of the smartest people are moms.</p>

<p>Such elitism is not pleasant. And not true. I could devise a measure that all engineers flunked. The fact is that most objective measures are devised by people who like to quantify. Like engineers. This doesn’t mean they’re smarter. This only means they exercise the kind of intelligence you approve of.</p>

<p>I find this narrow minded and unfair to all the contributions made by many different kinds of people.</p>

<p>And I am “smarter” than most of the lawyers I know by objective measures, but that kind of work bores me. I’d rather teach young people to appreciate John Donne.</p>

385

<p>

Only in the U.S. Actually, throughout most of the rest of the world, engineering is far more prestigious than medicine, law or business. This has to do with pay, as well as the difficulty of earning the degree and the perceived usefulness that the profession has for society. Doctors don’t earn such high salaries elsewhere and business is often seen as more of a trade.<br>

Again, I would say this is a uniquely American point-of-view. Most Americans seem to think all engineers are nerdy anti-social geeks. This stereotype may hold for many American engineering students (though it’s actually far fewer than generally assumed. I know plenty of engineering students at top schools around the country whose test scores were equally stellar in both Math and Reading and their social skills are excellent.) However, for all those foreign-born engineering students studying here or in their home countries, this nerd stereotype couldn’t be further from the truth. Foreign-born engineers tend to be the most educated, well-rounded and cultured people from their countries, and there is no division between the “science/math” people and the “reading/writing” people like there is here. And by the way, in many other countries, engineering is also not an overwhelmingly male profession like it is here.</p>

386

<p>The problem Dbate is that not everyone idea of prestige is the same. So if that is your marker then the which professions get identified at top tier are different for each person.</p>

<p>To me lawyers are very low on the prestige meter and I don’t consider it a top tier profession. You see not everyone has your viewpoint. I don’t think many in the US consider it so top tier anymore.</p>

<p>I think engineering is one of the most flexible undergraduate degrees you can have for groundwork to consider graduate programs as well.</p>

387

<p>I come from a big family of engineers and they are all supremely confident that they could easily run the world better than any lawyer, doctor, PhD or MBA. Every now and then you run across an engineer who can actually write well and exhibit flexibiltiy of mind in an argument. It’s never a good idea to stereotype. PhD husband calls engineers “method men”.</p>

388

<p>

</p>

<p>Xerox’s newest CEO, Ursula Burns joined Xerox straight out of college (Polytech, downtown Brooklyn) as a mechanical engineer ;)</p>

<p>[Xerox</a> Corporate Executive Biographies](<a href=“http://www.xerox.com/go/xrx/template/inv_rel_newsroom.jsp?ed_name=Ursula_Burns&app=Newsroom&format=biography&view=ExecutiveBiography]Xerox”>http://www.xerox.com/go/xrx/template/inv_rel_newsroom.jsp?ed_name=Ursula_Burns&app=Newsroom&format=biography&view=ExecutiveBiography)</p>

389

<p>

I just have to say that this is contrary to my experience. I can’t think of any who are poor writers or who can’t argue well.</p>

390

<p>“The salary is abysmal, and prospects for promotion are more contingent on business acumen rather than pure engineering talent.”</p>

<p>I agree! </p>

<p>“I think engineering is one of the most flexible undergraduate degrees you can have for groundwork to consider graduate programs as well.”</p>

<p>I agree!</p>

391

<p>The Chinese government is mostly made up of people with engineering and science backgrounds. Quite different than US politicians, who were generally trained in economics, political science, or law.</p>

392

<p>

</p>

<p>Ssssshhhhh. I’m just baiting Dbate, but the poor thing hasn’t figured that out yet. Let me have my fun.</p>

393

<p>As someone who rose up from the technical field, obtained MBA, and ended up in the business side of the high tech field, I find the arguments from Dbate quite disturbing. The possibility that someone like him who is just going into an prestigious school might just become a business elite with major decision making power and clout with that kind of an attitude toward engineers/technical professionals is downright scary. Neither of my children are in engineering/high tech (S1 is a wall street die hard, and S2 will wants to join military and then enter public section job later), so I am not saying this to defend future positions of my own children. </p>

<p>Continuing American prosperity is so painfully dependent upon continuing innovation of our scientists and technical professionals. Nations that emerged from economic obscurity to become part of the global powerhouse did so on the blood, sweats, and tears of their scientist and technical professionals. Japan’s electronics/automobile industry is a best known example. Korea emerged from a pitiable status as one of the 5 poorest countries in the world right after the Korean war to become one of the top 10-15 largest economies with the world number one market share in semiconductor business just to name one example. Most of your iPods and laptops are manufactured in Taiwan: in fact, if Taiwan collapses, the entire global high tech device market disappears (sort of). China is currently known as a mecca for chief and low quality manufacturing, but watch, it’s a matter of time before China follows the foot steps of its neighbors by technical innovation and excellence. It is already making an amazing inroad into the telecom infrastructure market and soon they will dominate the global scene while Lucent and Nortel (two North American superstars in this field) have collapsed. </p>

<p>USA has already started to loose its edge. All the foreign engineers, technical professionals and scientist who used to fill the void left by the lack of top flight American counterparts now have alternative options - their home countries that start to offer competitive positions, and other countries who wised up to welcome them into their countries. we should be encouraging more of our bright young kids to enter the technical field. We need to all endeavor to accord them better status in the society.</p>

<p>Dbate claims that engineering has a low barrier because it just requires BS. Please, learn to refrain from talking about something you have absolutely no idea whatsoever. Most of the engineers in any half way respectable companies have MS. On top of that, in terms of the actual barrier based on knowledge and expertise it takes, engineering has as high a barrier as medicine. There is no way whatsoever you can BS your way to the bank as an engineer, unlike a politician and a business person. For instance, engineers can overnight become a business manager in the same firm: there is NO way a business person can transfer to the engineering position. </p>

<p>In terms of prestige, well, try Silicone Vally. They command a great deal of respect. I have a great deal of respect for accomplished technical professionals. I don’t know what family/social background you are coming from. But you are only 18 without decades of exposure to a wide professional world. Get some more exposure to a much broader spectrum of the society before assuming such an authoritative position of telling everybody that they command no prestige and respect. Regarding autonomy, do you have any idea how many engineers got filthy rich with the tech revolution? Not only the likes of founders of google, yahoo, ebay, and countless of the shining examples of American innovation, there are tons and tons of engineers who got involved in these companies earlier on and have stashed away millions and millions of dollars through early equity ownership of their young companies. </p>

<p>It’s one thing to be confident. It’s entire another to be so cocky without any idea what he is talking about. I shouldn’t pick a fight with someone who is my son’s age, but what I read was so appalling, I couldn’t resist.</p>

394

<p>Excellent post.</p>

395

<p>In the US, engineers do not have the prestige that they have in Europe, or China. Here, unfortunately, high income is generally what is valued by the majority.</p>

396

<p>Silicon Valley’s existence and reputation contradict your supposition, DocT, as well as the laughable pretense put forth by Dbate.</p>

397

<p>Most engineers in the US do not work in silicon valley. Secondly, the engineers that are respected are those who are entrepeneurs not your every day run of the mill engineer. Are you an engineer trying to defend your turf? I suggest you debate this issue in the engineering forums.</p>

398

<br>

<br>

<p>Doesn’t matter what I am, but I’m smiling.</p>

399

<p>If you’re an engineer, come back and debate this 35 years from now when your experience in engineering approaches mine. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.</p>

400

<p>DocT,</p>

<p>most lawyers are not partners at white shoe law firms in Manhattan. In fact vast majority are working in run of the mill small offices. Most business people are not managing directors at Goldman Sachs. Vast majority are paper pushers (sometimes even on an executive level at a global fortune 100 company, I felt like one). Vast majority of doctors are working in small offices dealing with run of the mill common diseases. They certainly are not pioneering new organ transplant protocols. </p>

<p>Compare apples to apples.</p>